Do Calvinists Distort the Gospel?

[Mr. Davis]

Do I understand correctly that you do not agree that I Corinthians 15 is a biblical definition of the gospel? That was really all I was asserting in the post you quoted.

Monergism or Synergism: which is the actual gospel?

That is the question of the OP.

You did not answer it.

I mentioned 1 Cor 15:2 to you.

The actual gospel is monergistic because no one's faith is in vain, no matter how bad
things are. A believer may not "keep in memory" what Christ teaches. But God will
not abandon him.

2 Timothy 2:10-30. Broad context by Paul available by clicking on the link.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself."

Another rendering is:

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful."

Their faith was never in vain! They may been defeated. but God was faithful.

What a Great and loving God!

He keeps and preserves all that he calls. The Elect.

 

[Mr. Davis]

As it turns out - 1 Cor 6 "does exist"
... so also does Eph 6:2 and James 2 "exist"

My deepest thanks to the late Dr. John Walvoord, Pesident Emeritus of Dallas Theological Seminary for his works. I must also pay a debt of profound gratitude to Dr. Charles E. Stanley of First Baptist Church of Atlanta for his book, Eternal Security. And I would be terribly remiss if I did not recognize our own Dr. Thomas Cassidy for the wisdom, knowledge, and especially the inspiration, he provided me in my studies. If it hadn’t been for the faithful posters on this Board, I would have learned nothing.

Thanks to a wise and knowledgeable BrianT, we have this outstanding thread, “Do Calvinists
Distort the Gospel?” A study on Monergism and Synergism: which is the actual Gospel?

What I have said here confirms the validity of the fifth point of T.L.E.P. “The Preservation of the Saints.” (Tom corrects those who think it should be “I” for Irresistible Grace, replacing it with “E,” for efficacious grace.)

First, let me say Bob, you are hopelessly confused by Law and grace. Also, you cannot “will”
to be saved.

1 Cor 6 "does exist.”

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God

; neither will people, “Christians,” who only profess faith, but do not have changed lives.

Some were wicked until they were cleansed by the Holy Spirit, sanctified, and justified.

God changed them, they did not change themselves.

True Christians are changed by God. By His power, they will never change back.

They will always be sanctified and justified.

"Who ever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9, KJV).

Sin always starts in the heart. In our inmost being. We are drawn out by our own desires. We are tempted by them and choose to give in to them. By confessing and repenting we are restored to our state of positional holiness. It is as if we had never sinned.

When a man responds to the wooings of God the Holy Spirit, He comes in him. He remains in him. The Holy Spirit is sinless. He cannot be in the company of sin. The spirit of the man is sinless. He does not commit sin. He is born of God.

Because the inner part of man does not sin he has eternal security. But he can still sin outwardly. He can be as sinful as unbelievers and continue in repeated sin. He can lose his faith and still be saved. “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim 2:13).

God loves this man infinitely and the man, completely conformed to the image of Christ, loves Him immeasurably. He sacrificed the life of His only Son, in one space of time, a sacrifice for all of the sins of his people (the Elect), past, present, and future.

This man and God will abide in His love for eternity.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Monergism or Synergism: which is the actual gospel?

That is the question of the OP.

I understood the question of the OP to be:

Is the gospel of the synergist the exact same gospel of the monergist? If not, how do they differ?

The gospel is the same for both. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the good news. Christ died for our sins (the whole world - I John 2:2), He was buried, and then He rose again the third day. This gospel is the same for both.

 

[Mr. Davis]

I understood the question of the OP to be:


The gospel is the same for both. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the good news. Christ died for our sins (the whole world - I John 2:2), He was buried, and then He rose again the third day. This gospel is the same for both.

You are incorrect. Christ died only for the Elect. Monergism is the actual gospel.

I don't think we can debate enough to change the other's mind.

 

[BobRyan]

What I have said here confirms the validity of the fifth point of T.L.E.P. “The Preservation of the Saints.” (Tom corrects those who think it should be “I” for Irresistible Grace, replacing it with “E,” for efficacious grace.)

Sounds for all the world like "live like the devil and go to heaven anyway" intros I have heard in the past. Hopefully this is not your agenda.

First, let me say Bob, you are hopelessly confused by Law and grace.

False accusations are easy to make. I think we all knew that to start with. Still looking for "actual substance"

Also, you cannot “will” to be saved.

Are you quoting me or you?

1 Cor 6 "does exist.”

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Some were wicked until they were cleansed by the Holy Spirit, sanctified, and justified.

Which means they are saved - and it is to that group that Paul writes "it is already a defeat for you...be not deceived... the wicked do not inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 6 details you ignored

True Christians are changed by God. By His power, they will never change back.

They will always be sanctified and justified.

You have merely "assumed" the salient point of your argument rather then proving it. You knew that right?

"Who ever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9, KJV).

1 Cor 6 accuses people in that group of sinning. you cannot solve the 1Cor 6 problem for OSAS by ignoring it. 1 Cor 6 is reproof and reprimand for failure.

Sin always starts in the heart. In our inmost being. We are drawn out by our own desires. We are tempted by them and choose to give in to them. By confessing and repenting we are restored to our state of positional holiness. It is as if we had never sinned.

Saved saints that fall and repent are the success cases but 1 Cor 6 is falling and needinig rebuke that includes the warning that they cannot live like the devil and still "get heaven" as their reward.

When a man responds to the wooings of God the Holy Spirit, He comes in him. He remains in him. The Holy Spirit is sinless. He cannot be in the company of sin. The spirit of the man is sinless. He does not commit sin. He is born of God.

Because the inner part of man does not sin he has eternal security. But he can still sin outwardly.

Total nonsense. Not one single Bible text says "you sinned but it is not actually a sin so you are sinless still" and we both know it.

He can be as sinful as unbelievers and continue in repeated sin. He can lose his faith and still be saved.

This is the "live like the devil and then get more heaven because sin is not really sin for you" doctrine that I have never heard from Charles Stanley.

"I forgave you all the debt.. hand him over to the torturers until he should repay ALL... so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart" Matthew 18
"you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them He may not spare you either" Romans 11


" 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" Hebrews 6

 

[BobRyan]

You are incorrect. Christ died only for the Elect. Monergism is the actual gospel.

I don't think we can debate enough to change the other's mind.

And you can not persuade by simply assuming the salient point of your own argument rather than proving it.

 

[BobRyan]

Monergism or Synergism: which is the actual gospel?

That is the question of the OP.

You did not answer it.

I mentioned 1 Cor 15:2 to you.

The actual gospel is monergistic because no one's faith is in vain, no matter how bad
things are. A believer may not "keep in memory" what Christ teaches. But God will
not abandon him.

2 Timothy 2:10-30. Broad context by Paul available by clicking on the link.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself."

Another rendering is:

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful."

Their faith was never in vain! They may been defeated. but God was faithful.

What a Great and loving God!

He keeps and preserves all that he calls. The Elect.

"Be not deceived" ...
1 John 3 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother

That is all about outward practice not inward wishful thinking.

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

 

[Pastor_Bob]

You are incorrect. Christ died only for the Elect. Monergism is the actual gospel.

Neither monergism nor synergism are the actual gospel. It is simply a game of semantics that express to whom and how the gospel is applied. I certainly do not claim a label when it comes to the gospel. The only label I care to have is that of an old sinner saved by grace. Labels destroy the simplicity of the gospel.

Jesus said that even little children can understand (Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17). I choose to believe that it is easier for a child to believe that Jesus loved everyone of them instead of choosing to believe that it is easier for a child to believe that He chose some of them to live with Him for eternity and chose others to go to a Christ-less eternity.

I don't think we can debate enough to change the other's mind.

This is something on which we both agree.

 

[Mr. Davis]

I have revised my post:

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God; neither will people, “Christians,” who only profess faith, but do not have changed lives.

Because the inner part of man does not sin he has eternal security. But he can still sin outwardly. He can be as sinful as unbelievers and continue in repeated sin. But God will discipline him. If he refuses God's discipline, God may even take his life! (1 Cor 11:17-34). He can lose his faith and still be saved. “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim 2:13).He can lose his faith and still be saved. “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim 2:13).

 

[TCassidy]

He chose some of them to live with Him for eternity and chose others to go to a Christ-less eternity.

I agree. It would be a horrible sin to tell a child, or anyone else, such a vile lie, that Christ chose some for hell. Such a lie is straight out of the pit of hell, and denies the inspiration and veracity of the bible, and the God of the bible.

Christ does not condemn the lost. They are condemned already.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I agree. It would be a horrible sin to tell a child, or anyone else, such a vile lie, that Christ chose some for hell. Such a lie is straight out of the pit of hell, and denies the inspiration and veracity of the bible, and the God of the bible.

Christ does not condemn the lost. They are condemned already.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase: I can't imagine Jesus saying it would be easier for a child to understand that He "un-condemned" some of them and chose to allow the rest to remain "condemned."

 

[TCassidy]

Fair enough. Let me rephrase: I can't imagine Jesus saying it would be easier for a child to understand that He "un-condemned" some of them and chose to allow the rest to remain "condemned."

Just as big a lie as the first one.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Just as big a lie as the first one.

Sorry, my friend, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, well, well. Since no one can come to Jesus unless the Father enables them to do so --what is your problem?

The Father causes them to come, He gives them over to Jesus. Do you disagree? If you object, it is silly. There is no theological distortion. Concentrate on majors.


A classic line by someone with no Christian ethics. You are no fan of William Tyndale I suppose.

I can think of things worthy to be burned, but not a Bible translation which has and will advance the Kingdom of God.

The Lord's thoughts are not only far above your own --but opposed to your thoughts. Tread carefully.

Do not burn them, but get people to level where they can graduate to a more formal version to use!

 

[Yeshua1]

If we heard a Calvinist and an Arminian proclaim the gospel, would we hear the identical thing? I think not. In fact, I know not.

If we listened to a DL Moody, or a Spurgeon just in regards to the Gospel, think would hear same message!

 

[TCassidy]

Sorry, my friend, you can't have it both ways.

A lie is a lie no matter how much you try to hide the wording.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

A lie is a lie no matter how much you try to hide the wording.

How, then, can these children whom Jesus has gathered around Him, ever change their "condemned" standing? The verse you quote clearly tells us that we are condemned because we "hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Can they change their condemnation by simply believing in Him, as Jesus said two verses prior?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Is the gospel of the synergist the exact same gospel of the monergist? If not, how do they differ?

Arminianisim and Calvinism are built upon incorrect soteriological conjecture. Neither is superior to the other.

 

[thatbrian]

Arminianisim and Calvinism are built upon incorrect soteriological conjecture. Neither is superior to the other.

And, the very high ground you stand upon which condemns 95% of Christendom as, "built upon incorrect soteriological conjecturer" is???

 

[TCassidy]

How, then, can these children whom Jesus has gathered around Him, ever change their "condemned" standing?

They can't. That is the whole point.

The verse you quote clearly tells us that we are condemned because we "hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That's right. We were condemned ALREADY! Christ did not condemn us. We condemned ourselves. You can't blame Christ for those who condemned themselves.

Can they change their condemnation by simply believing in Him, as Jesus said two verses prior?

No! The cold, dead, heart of stone does not, in fact, will not, believe. "The natural man does NOT receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14.

God, and God alone, is able to save souls. That any of us are saved is the result of pure Grace, not according to our works of any sort.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.