O
OCC
Guest
Wes, it may have been edited. I know I was called one...you don't want to be calling me a liar now do you?
Larry...I believe I told you about it before.
Larry...I believe I told you about it before.
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Do Calvinists Speak about Predestination in Evangelistic Preaching?
- Thread starter StefanM
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Humblesmith
Member
Here's a quote from Charles Finney, in his Autobiography, about how his particular Calvinist pastor would preach in his day:
"If he preached repentence, he must be sure before he sat down, to leave the impression on his people, that they could not repent. If he called them to believe, he must be sure to inform them that, until their nature was changed by the Holy Spirit, faith was impossible to them."
Now, don't get on me about what Finney believed. I'm not saying anything here about his teaching. But no matter what we think of Finney and his theology, I don't think any of us are in a position to call him a liar. Apparently, the gospel was presented this way in that day, at the very least by this man. Like it or not, we could build a case that some people in the past didn't believe as heavily in evangelism or missions as they could or should have. There was a time when the Catholics believed more in missions than protestants, hence what we have now in central and south america.
I think it's safe to say that there have been, and still are, some problems with how some people present these things, and both Calvinists and Arminians have made errors over the years.
"If he preached repentence, he must be sure before he sat down, to leave the impression on his people, that they could not repent. If he called them to believe, he must be sure to inform them that, until their nature was changed by the Holy Spirit, faith was impossible to them."
Now, don't get on me about what Finney believed. I'm not saying anything here about his teaching. But no matter what we think of Finney and his theology, I don't think any of us are in a position to call him a liar. Apparently, the gospel was presented this way in that day, at the very least by this man. Like it or not, we could build a case that some people in the past didn't believe as heavily in evangelism or missions as they could or should have. There was a time when the Catholics believed more in missions than protestants, hence what we have now in central and south america.
I think it's safe to say that there have been, and still are, some problems with how some people present these things, and both Calvinists and Arminians have made errors over the years.
There is no doubt that there have been errors on all sides of Christianity and in every vein of Christianity. The truth still remains - the extreme fringes of any major theological system do not define the whole. Never has, never will.
Timtoolman
New Member
The same word is used in John 21:11. Were those fished saved? Or will you admit that the word helkuo has different meanings in different contexts?
STudy the context and read the verse. In 6:44, the verse teaches that all who are drawn will be raised up. Therefore, the drawing is the guarantee of salvation. in 12:32, the context is Jews and Greeks, and Jesus refuses to see the Greeks, but says that after his crucifixion, all will be drawn, many Greeks too.
</font>[/QUOTE]Larry 12:32 says that if He be (the Christ) lifted up I will draw all men to me. So in 6:44 it just says simpley He draws all men. So does He have to be lifted up or not? OR is this just taking scripture as a whole and applying it. He must be lifted up to draw all men to him. So if you read the whole book of JOhn you get the picture. God ssay Christ must be lifted up. NOw if you read further down it tells you who will be raised, it it those who believe(vs 47). So what we have simply is that all men are drawn but not all men give into the calling. Only those that believe are raised. If we use your study of the passage we can stop at 44 and say all are drawn and raised period. No need to repent or "call upon the Lord". God just draws and all are saved and raised.
O
OCC
Guest
I don't know. I think the fact that He draws all men doesn't mean all those men get saved. I think He draws ALL men and many reject Him.
It is true that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, but it doesn't say that many of those drawn can't reject Him.
It is true that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, but it doesn't say that many of those drawn can't reject Him.
Lifting up is a part of the drawing. The drawing is to the lifted up Christ. There is no contradiction here at all. BTW, in 6:44 it doesn't say he draws "all men." It says he draws "all."
Incorrect. Again, put it all together. All who are drawn will be raised. Only those who have believed will be raised. Therefore, the "drawn" and the "believers" are the same group of people. In 6:44ff. all the drawn are drawn to belief. You have no one drawn who is not raised, according to 6:44. This is a place where we need to let Scripture speak for itself, rather than forcing our position on it.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Larry;
I laughed so hard over this reply of yours.
Free will is not an invention of Calvin or Augustine but is Biblical. How is it that a Calvinist like yourself can preach what you don't believe?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I laughed so hard over this reply of yours.
What part of Calvinism do Arminians preach?
Free will is not an invention of Calvin or Augustine but is Biblical. How is it that a Calvinist like yourself can preach what you don't believe?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Timtoolman
New Member
Lifting up is a part of the drawing. The drawing is to the lifted up Christ. There is no contradiction here at all. BTW, in 6:44 it doesn't say he draws "all men." It says he draws "all."
Incorrect. Again, put it all together. All who are drawn will be raised. Only those who have believed will be raised. Therefore, the "drawn" and the "believers" are the same group of people. In 6:44ff. all the drawn are drawn to belief. You have no one drawn who is not raised, according to 6:44. This is a place where we need to let Scripture speak for itself, rather than forcing our position on it. </font>[/QUOTE]Then I have to say you are practicing poor exerges too support your calvinism.
Also had to laugh along with iluvlight. Pretty whacky statement. You know my preacher is a calvinist but gives an arminian invitation, like most calvinist do.
The part about Jesus dying for sin, the part about whosoever believes, the part about repentance, the part about eternal life. All of it. If the arminians didn't borrow from the CAlvinists message, they wouldn't have anything to say.
You are exactly right. Unfortunately, the arminians have distorted it.
What do I preach that I don't believe? Or is this more of you illustrating that you are don't know what you are talking about??? I think we have seen enough from you to know that you are almost completely uninformed and unlearning about what we believe. We have said enough now that you should know better.
NOt only do you not "have" to say it, you shouldn't. I am not practicing poor exegesis. I said simply what the text says, and no one here has been able to answer it with an answer that makes sense.
Not sure what an "arminian invitation" is. The biblical invitation is to repent and believe on teh Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. That is what Calvinists have invited people to for centuries, because that was the invitation Christ gave.
Timtoolman
New Member
Larry He says He will draw all to Him and raise them...then further down it says that those who believe. So you have to take it in its entirity. He draws all He raises all that believe. Its not difficult or even hard to understand. YOu say what one verse says without looking at the whole context. Isn't that poor exegesis?
Timtoolman
New Member
Larry I asked this on a weds night study from the pastor Jaun. If the invitation is not to all then why do we give to all. Wouldn't we be more honest to say if you are one of the elect or chosen then praise the Lord. No need to walk the ailse or raise your hand. YOUR IT! I am just saying that honesty seems to escape calvinist when it comes to what they preach. cept the hyper calvinist.
I tried to wittness to a guy who is the pastor at a calvinist church in Pontiac. Started I think by Andy anderson, the ones who own the largest motorcycle shop. And he became very angry with me. asking me who do I think I am, God or the HS? What right do I haVE to approach him with such a question. I am trying to think of his name you would might know him. I didn't know who he was till I approached him.
You know actually pastor says he has a problem with limited atonement so he doesn't really consider himself a calvinist. Just calvinistic. grin
I tried to wittness to a guy who is the pastor at a calvinist church in Pontiac. Started I think by Andy anderson, the ones who own the largest motorcycle shop. And he became very angry with me. asking me who do I think I am, God or the HS? What right do I haVE to approach him with such a question. I am trying to think of his name you would might know him. I didn't know who he was till I approached him.
You know actually pastor says he has a problem with limited atonement so he doesn't really consider himself a calvinist. Just calvinistic. grin
You are incorrect on several accounts. First, he doesn't say taht he will draw "all" to him in this passage. (That is poor exegesis ... finding something that isn't even there).
Second, he says that no one can come unless they are drawn. That is a statement about ability.
Third, the second part of the verse say that he will raise {them" up. Who is "them"? In teh context, it has to be those who are drawn.
Where does belief fit in? Those who are drawn are drawn to believe. There is nothing tricky about it. You are right that it isn't difficult to understand. But you are trying to read something into it that isn't there. REad the passage in its entirety and you will see the two groups (drawn and not drawn) clearly delineated.
I will stop you right there. The invitation is to all ... all who believe. This is called the general call. There is no one excluded from the invitation.
Usually when people inject "honesty" into there is a perjorative coming. But let's move on. What is the biblical evidence that one is of the elect? They believe. You are right that there is no need to walk the aisle or raise their hand. I will bet your pastor agrees with that. IT is not raising the hand or walkign teh aisle that saves. It is faith in Christ that saves.
And I am just pointing out that you are dead wrong.
I don't base my theology on experience, either with good response or a bad response. The fact that someone responded wrongly to the gospel message is no evidence for either side.
You know actually pastor says he has a problem with limited atonement so he doesn't really consider himself a calvinist. Just calvinistic. grin
Timtoolman
New Member
Larry that is all calvinist jargon. I have dealt with it many times. The contradictions, like the invitation is to al but not all can come not only is unbiblical but asasinates the character of God.
No matter how you phrase it or try to cover it, to call to all is a dishonet calvinist. No different then if I said I would pay anyones debt but then pick the ones I paid. It is clintnese, it is twisting the truth , it is not being straight forward or letting your yeah be yeah. Stand up and tell people this is the gospel, either you are chosen or not, one of the select and it is not up too you. Tell it like it is. Where are the calvinist who wil do that. Tell you kids I hope you are teh elect, but if not praise God anyways your going to hell.
And last but not least I was sharing the last part as a person, a calvinist who is at least is honest in his beliefs. No need to act like I am basing theology on experience. I did not make any statement that would qaulify me making that statement about the cavilnist preacher regarding any theology. I am not stupid. I find that calvinist are like people with several degrees. They have great book smarts but lack common sense and really cannot relate to man. They are puffed up and full of themselves. They are worshoppers of knowledge in the sense that they THINK that they are wiser then those who disagree with them.
I do not know the stats but am willing to bet that calvinism runs less then 25% among born again believers. MOst people do not buy into the teachings of J. Calvin but instead prefer the teachings of J. Christ.
No matter how you phrase it or try to cover it, to call to all is a dishonet calvinist. No different then if I said I would pay anyones debt but then pick the ones I paid. It is clintnese, it is twisting the truth , it is not being straight forward or letting your yeah be yeah. Stand up and tell people this is the gospel, either you are chosen or not, one of the select and it is not up too you. Tell it like it is. Where are the calvinist who wil do that. Tell you kids I hope you are teh elect, but if not praise God anyways your going to hell.
And last but not least I was sharing the last part as a person, a calvinist who is at least is honest in his beliefs. No need to act like I am basing theology on experience. I did not make any statement that would qaulify me making that statement about the cavilnist preacher regarding any theology. I am not stupid. I find that calvinist are like people with several degrees. They have great book smarts but lack common sense and really cannot relate to man. They are puffed up and full of themselves. They are worshoppers of knowledge in the sense that they THINK that they are wiser then those who disagree with them.
I do not know the stats but am willing to bet that calvinism runs less then 25% among born again believers. MOst people do not buy into the teachings of J. Calvin but instead prefer the teachings of J. Christ.
Timtoolman
New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
[QB]Larry says "You are incorrect on several accounts. First, he doesn't say taht he will draw "all" to him in this passage. (That is poor exegesis ... finding something that isn't even there). "
ME....Here let me take you back a page this is your post.
You again....."There is no contradiction here at all. BTW, in 6:44 it doesn't say he draws "all men." It says he draws "all."
hmmm ..... I know calvinism is tricky to defend.
Timtoolman
New Member
And He does draw all.
Timtoolman
New Member
Not wrong on any account I agree as scriptures says that it is he who believes will be raised up. I believe he has to be drawn, I believe God has done ALL the work so man can believe. I don't believe I could or did will God to do this work. It was entirely up to HIm and HIs will or character. I believe that He loves the sinner lbut hates the sin. I believe He calls to all and thos who reject His word will harden thier hearts. Men can and do reject the HS.
these are totally scriptural and requirs no scripural gymnastics or redefing of terms to defend.
I would really like to know how a calvinsit can praise God for thier kid going to hell or some loved one. That somehow we can love others more so the God. Its not just unscriptural but is kind of sick.
Timtoolman
New Member
And He does draw all. </font>[/QUOTE]Will He raise them all up on the last day? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]If you read furhter down it says those that believe. Yes He will raise those that He draws and accept the wooing of the HS.
First, respond all in post, not in a bunch of little ones.
That is pure nonsense, Tim. You know that. The invitation is to all who will accept. Those who won't accept are still invited. It is not dishonest in the least. God isn't keepoing them from responding.
Bad analogy. God didn't say he would save "anyone." The "all" or "any" is always qualified by belief. If you say you will pay everyone's debt, and then don't pay it, you are lying. If you say you will pay everyone's debt who will come and ask you, that is completely different. God said the latter.
I tell people that. Why wouldn't I? That is what the Bible says and when you come to a passage that says that, then you preach it that way. I tell them that God is calling out for himself a people, and one of the evidences you are one of htem is that you care about your soul and your eternal destiny. I tell them that it isn't up to them, and they should be thankful for a God who is gracious enough not to let them destroy themselves. You see, when you love God and his word, you preach it just like it says.
This is nonsense as well, and you konw it. Of hte pastors I know in this area, the most humble ones are the Calvinists. I don't know any that are puffed up or full of themselves, and I probalby know a lot more of them than you do. They don't worship knowledge in the least. This kind of argument is experiential (and wrong). It doesn't help your case. Regardless of hte rightness or wrongness of your assertion, the test of truth is not the personality of hte person who believes it. You should know that.
I have no idea. My bet is that most people in the state don't know the difference.
If you knew the teachings of both on soteriology, you wouldn't make this false dichotomy. Calvin wasn't right in everything, but on these general issues, he was more right than wrong. We follow Christ. Don't pretend like we don't.
I am sure you are smart enough to figure out that 6:44 was a typo. The paragraph you quoted that from was about 12:32, where it doesn't say "all men," but rather "all."
Not at all. It is hard to type sometimes.
All what?
This is a mishmash of theological ideas. You are conflating a bunch of things into one paragraph. I (and every calvinist I know) will accept everything you said here.
Yes, and they don't fit with your system.
I don't know that we "praise God" for someone going to hell. It is an act that demosntrates God's glory by the punishment of sin. That is certainly praiseworthy. And anyone who goes to hell only does so because that is what they deserve.
It also has nothing to do with this conversation. It is totally irrelevant.
And you are still completely ignoring the text. 6:44 draws a circle around "drawn" and "raised up." All of the drawn are raised up. There is no room in 6:44 for someone to be drawn but not raised. That is simple.