Do people which commit suicide automatically go to hell?

[standingfirminChrist]

but a murderer nonetheless.

and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Amy.G]

David murdered, yes. But if you read your Bible, you will find David repented of that murder. And the Bible teaches that once one is repentent and is forgiven, that one's sins are cast into the depths of the sea to be remembered by God no more.

When one comes to Christ, his or her sins are covered by the blood. But as I said above, Christ knows our hearts. He knows if we are going to endure to the end, or if we are going to ultimately deny Him. It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved (Matt. 10:24). Can it be said that the suicide endured?

What if David had dropped dead of a heart attack before he repented? Would he have gone to hell?

 

[Claudia_T]

What if David had dropped dead of a heart attack before he repented? Would he have gone to hell?

I think so.

Luke 12:
15: And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19: And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20: But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21: So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

[Amy.G]

I had a great grandmother that believed if you were saved and died before you could be baptized you'd go to hell. I don't know all the answers, but I know that only God can judge the heart.

 

[tragic_pizza]

My Big Book O' Absolute Answers is the Word of God. What is yours?

Your "Big Book O' Answers" isn't the Word of God, but your rigid interpretation of a few specific, noncontextual verses of the Word of God.

 

[tragic_pizza]

xdx, I just want to say that I wanted to stand and applaud when I read your answers and challenges in the past few pages.

I notice Mr. "I Know What God Thinks" didn't answer about whether Samson went to Hell...

 

[ccrobinson]

From previous debates about this topic, SFIC has built his house of cards about this position on the premise of "unintentional sin". According to SFIC, Christians don't intentionally sin anymore, and since suicide is an intentional sin, a Christian will go to Hell for it. The premise is faulty, because there is no such thing as unintentional sin.

James gives what I think is a pretty good definition of sin, and I'm sure there are others, this is the one that came to me.

James 1:14-15 - ...but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It appears to me that James is saying that sin is intentional, not unintentional. Since Christians still sin, and since the Christian's sin was dealt with at Calvary, I believe Romans 8:38-39 to be true.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Claudia_T]

From previous debates about this topic, SFIC has built his house of cards about this position on the premise of "unintentional sin". According to SFIC, Christians don't intentionally sin anymore, and since suicide is an intentional sin, a Christian will go to Hell for it. The premise is faulty, because there is no such thing as unintentional sin.

James gives what I think is a pretty good definition of sin, and I'm sure there are others, this is the one that came to me.



It appears to me that James is saying that sin is intentional, not unintentional. Since Christians still sin, and since the Christian's sin was dealt with at Calvary, I believe Romans 8:38-39 to be true.

Yes there is such a thing as unintentional sin, we do that all the time, all of us.

Thats why the Bible says

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

sin is still sin, because sin is transgression of the law and we all do that daily... but God doesnt count it as sin against us unless we realize we are disobeying Him...

 

[Eric B]

I believe her failed attempt was God telling her that suicide is not an answer to life's problems. That she needs to look to Him for those answers and for the peace that passes all understanding even in the fiercest of life's troubles. But no, she has since been hospitalized 4 different times since then for attempted suicides by overdose. Last year, she was committed to an institution where her pill intake is monitored. She still will not give her life over to God.

So again, we "look to Him" for "answers" and for "peace", rather than for salvation, and if a person fails in that, then we apparently can't look to Him for salvation, because we never had it. This has it all backwards. The Bible speaks of peace, but this is here being made into the central thing we "trust God" for, and then a whole judgment of certain sins being built off of this.

It is not that I did not prove my idea with Scripture, but that you do not see the truth that was presented through the Scripture.
We cannot just throw out the verses that say all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire and act like they were never there. We cannot throw out the verse that says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him and act like it was never there. God's Word abideth forever, my firends. He cannot lie.

No one threw out any verses, but you, by taking one verse, in isolation of all the others, and building a doctrine off of your interpretation of it. As we will see now, all of the verses you have quoted are out of context, and having your own meanings read into them. That is no proof of your idea with scripture, and neither is it seeing the truth of scripture, it is eisogetic proof-texting.

If His Word says the murderer has no eternal life in him, then He is revealing the true nature of the man's heart.
If His Word says all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, then He is revealing the truth of His judgment for those who ultimately rejected His Son.
And that is exactly what the self-centered suicidal person did. They placed their trust in something other than Christ.

Again, "trust" in Christ is for salvation. What is man's greatest need? You all will say it yourselves--not freedom from pain, but salvation. So then why do you turn freedom from pain, or a good attitude if He doesn't free you from the pain, into what we trust Christ for, so that a man has "rejected Christ" if he does something like that? This is what the health Gospel preachers thrive off of--God is all about "[physical] healing", and even quote "by His stripes you are healed", and if you are not physically or emotionally healed, you must have rejected Christ. As much as your brand of old-line fundamentalist Christianity criticizes them, you're preaching the same basic thing, and being even more judgmental about it.

Wonder why God did not instruct Paul to kill himself when Paul asked Him to remove the thorn in his flesh. Why did God instead say, 'My grace is sufficient'?

Do you even know what that means? This statement people throw around at the suffering, (as well as making millions selling books off of these "hard concepts" of "how to deal with suffering") Paul's "thorn in the flesh" involves a heavenly vision Paul was given, which might have caused self-exaltation. The ["sufficient"] "grace" used there actually is the same "charis" meaning "unmerited favor", involving once again salvation from the curse of the Law, which is what the entire NT Gospel is about. It is certainly not something worked up by trying to squelch one's feelings or pretending the pain doesn't matter. Yet we take this, turn it into some "positive attitude when you are suffering", and judge the sufferer by the Law (charges of "murder" or "trusting other than Christ"-- not really saved) when he fails. You old-liners are generally critical of psychology and secular humanism, but what you are preaching is actually "self-help" or "positive thinking", with God's name slapped onto it.
Paul then said that he would then delight in weaknesses and hardships, persecutions, etc. but the context is about boasting, and that rather than boasting of his vision, as if that makes him "strong", he will boast of his weakness. This is not something we are to hit the sufferers of our day with, telling them if they do not enjoy their suffering, they have rejected Christ! That adds more distress to their situation, and actually makes them more likely to give up and look to suicide! So this is not how we try to motivate people from committing suicide. You have just harshly judged your poor ex-wife, instead of showing compassion! That is one thing our trials are supposed to do for us-- give us compassion for others (2 Cor.1:4), but instead, we look at them as some badges of merit where we judge someone else who does not have as good an attitude as us!

The Psalmist wrote, 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.' It is not the Lord delivering out of afflictions when man kills himself. It is a clear denial of God's Word. Nothing less.

And what does that verse mean? Does every problem a Christian have always end? Look at the next verse: (Ps.34:20) "Not one of his bones are broken". Does a Christian never have bones broken? So you are not understanding these passages correctly, and the person didn't "deliver himself instead of God deliviring him". This is ultimately a Messianic prophecy, and "deliverance" is ultimately spiritual. Again, many charismatics misuse this "deliverance" concept into something it is not, and you are falling into the same error citing this passage this way.

But I also know that Christ knows man's heart. God knows every act we will ever commit in this life. If He knows the final things we do in life, If He knows that the suicidal person is going to deny Christ by putting his or her faith in something other than Christ, has He truly saved that person?

The object of faith is not freedom from pain, so he has not "put his faith in something else" in that sense. He has fallen into a fleshy reaction of sin, like anyone else who sins; the only difference is that it is unfixable. But salvation is not in fixing a sin either.

When one comes to Christ, his or her sins are covered by the blood. But as I said above, Christ knows our hearts. He knows if we are going to endure to the end, or if we are going to ultimately deny Him. It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved (Matt. 10:24). Can it be said that the suicide endured?

"Endurance to the end" is talking about the Great Tribulation period, and a person rejecting Christ in order to spare his life. That is literally rejecting Christ, not some one act of sin that you reckon as constituting a rejection of Christ. Again, salvation would be by works, then.

And to xdisciple, I hope you're learning from all your time here that this is basically what you are going to get from many Christians. Judgment. the Church is shamefully at a place where we do not have the real answers, but only our own interpretations of scripture we argue on an on about, and they hide the confusion by coming up with quick, easy formulaic answers (Easy for them to say, but hard for others to receive), such as "Just trust God, and all your pain will not matter", and "just read the Bible and pray, and all these questions will be answered", when we still have not agreed upon any answer, or found any real lasting peace. If you don't, that makes their nice formula look bad, and would cause them to have to think and question it, so they question your salvation instead. I have been there.
So while some here have been patient and tried to help you, others just get impatient and wish you would just go away. I sometimes feel as distressed as you about all this stuff. I used to go around asking when I first became Christian (and there was no internet, so it was by mail, and in person as much as I could find), but I learned a long time ago, you can only press these people for answers but so much. Most will just give you a rock when you ask for bread. If this is people's answer to someone distressed enough to be suicidal, then right there, you should see where many of them are coming from, and I wouldn't want to ask them anything else! May God help us all!

 

[Helen]

Eric, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I had some of that when I was asking questions in my twenties and early thirties, but God also put in my path a wonderful older sister in Christ who was incredibly patient with me. I was also blessed enough to be able to ask Dave Hunt in person a multitude of questions about the Bible one evening when the church we were attending sponsored an evening with him. He was the one who helped unwind me from my mother's belief in psychics, reincarnation and such and helped me see I could trust the Bible and what the Bible really said. Even a pastor I had seen before that, in the church we had attended previously, had called me a "Pharisee" when I asked why they were relaxing about abortion and homosexuality and why he had said in a Sunday sermon that 'we really know that we cannot thank God in ALL things". When I asked him if there were reincarnation in the Bible, he didn't know! That was a Lutheran church, by the way.

So yeah, I got some interesting responses to my questions, but God was faithful to put in my path some people who really knew their Bible, really had faith, and had the patience to deal with me during that time.

I pray we are the same with others.

God bless you. I really appreciated the rest of your post.

 

[rbell]

SFIC ignored my other issue:

He is insinuating that those who commit suicide go to hell do so, and liars who repent do not. This leads us to his logical conclusion: According to SFIC, if you die with unconfessed sin, you go to hell.

Hogwash, SFIC. You can't possibly back that up with scripture. And if you can, you should be Catholic, so last rites can take care of any "problems."

If I've mis-interpreted, show me. But I'm just following your train of thinking...you need to change tracks, BTW.

 

[Shiloh]

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Meaning "murder" taking the life of others with malice. Malice has it's seat in the heart. Example, IJn.3:15
satan fell not because he did something but because he thought he would be like God. Isa.15:13
We get saved when we believe in our heart, Rom.10:9 Now notice this,
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
BUT notice
Luk 12:20 "But God said unto him, thou fool,"

Does this mean that God is in danger of hell fire?
Does this mean that God had to repent? NO a thousand times no.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. These people in this verse are "fearful or faithless" in their heart, "unbelieving" in their heart, "abominable" in their heart and "murderers in the intermost part of their being, their heart. Just to look at someone and flippantly call someone a fool does not constitute an eternal damnation in hell.

I believe there are people who have grown so despondent with life through discouragement or financial problems or physical ailments that they have taken their own life on impulse. If those ones were saved this act would not send their soul to eternal damnation.

 

[ccrobinson]

Yes there is such a thing as unintentional sin, we do that all the time, all of us.

Thats why the Bible says

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

sin is still sin, because sin is transgression of the law and we all do that daily... but God doesnt count it as sin against us unless we realize we are disobeying Him...

Huh? You posted James 4:17? This verse doesn't help your argument, it contradicts and buries it. If I know to do good, and willfully choose not to do it (which is very definition of "doeth it not"), I sin. Please explain the unintentional part of the phrase "doeth it not".

 

[rbell]

all sin is willful.

 

[Claudia_T]

Huh? You posted James 4:17? This verse doesn't help your argument, it contradicts and buries it. If I know to do good, and willfully choose not to do it (which is very definition of "doeth it not"), I sin. Please explain the unintentional part of the phrase "doeth it not".

Okay if the Bible defines sin as "transgression of the Law" ...
1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

...then any transgression of the law is sin...


But the Bible also says to the individual person, it is a sin if he knows it is a sin and commits it anyway....
James 4:
17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


And so we are always transgressing the law, without realizing it, even though God doesnt hold us accountable for it, right? since any transgression of the law is sin.... we are unintentionally sinning all the time but not always held accountable for what we dont know.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

all sin is willful.

No it isnt. there are sins of omission... all sorts of sins we do that are not willful...

 

[Claudia_T]

What some of you are not apparently realizing is that ANY transgression of the Law is SIN... willful or not

so we are sinning continually.


If you took one good look at Jesus and saw His purity you could see you are a transgressor of the Law..


Look at Isaiah.... he realized that when he was in the sanctuary, he become very aware:

Isa:6:5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

 

[Helen]

all sin is willful.

This time I disagree with you. The Old Testament speaks of sins of ignorance. I don't think human nature has changed...

Lev. 4 and 5 treat this subject. Check Numbers 15:24-29 as well.

 

[tragic_pizza]

There is also the state of sin, which is separation from God.

That isn't, at least as a mode of existence, an act of will.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC ignored my other issue:

He is insinuating that those who commit suicide go to hell do so, and liars who repent do not. This leads us to his logical conclusion: According to SFIC, if you die with unconfessed sin, you go to hell.

Hogwash, SFIC. You can't possibly back that up with scripture. And if you can, you should be Catholic, so last rites can take care of any "problems."

If I've mis-interpreted, show me. But I'm just following your train of thinking...you need to change tracks, BTW.

It is not that I ignored your questions. I have been down due to power surges and repairs.

It is not that I am insuating that suicides go to hell and liars who repent do not. It is I am affirming that suicides go to hell, since the Word of God says that murderers do not have eternal life. If you have a problem with that statement, talk to God about it. It is His Word, not mine. I am also affirming that liars who repent and are forgiven will escape the lake of fire since once again, the Word of God says their sins and iniquities He will not remember any more.

But suicide is an ulitmate proof that the person never had eternal life abiding in Him, for John clearly stated this.

I know even more today that we are indeed living in the last days Timothy spoke of, for men do not want to hear sound doctrine, but would rather believe any unrepented sin will be winked at when one stands before the Throne. Well, all I got to say is All murderers, liars, and anything that defiles will be cast into the lake of fire just as God promised in His Wordl.

Samson? who said Samson committed suicide? God could have taken his life before the first stone fell on him. We do know Samson is mentioned in the hall of faith. But the Word does not specificially say the building killed him, so why add to it and say he committed suicide? If he committed suicide, then John must have been lying when he said no murderer has eternal life.