Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?

[Stanedglass]

The thread is gone beyond its usefulness.
No one can answer your question. You must answer it yourself.
First. Your "question" is composed of conjectures and thus is not a question, but a hypothetical, and then you keep on continuing with more hypotheticals which just never end. It becomes meaningless "debate," if that is what debate is called.

The conjectures were added b/c I'm trying to get you to see that we ARE talking about the Christ of The Bible! Yes it's a hypothetical question! I keep continuing with more hypotheticals and conjectures b/c you will not answer the question straight forwardly.

So then I'm forced to me more specific! I'm only adding conjectures b/c you force me to make the point that we are believing in the Christ of the Bible although we do not see him as 2nd!

It's the same tatic you would use on someone who supported baptism as part of the New Birth Experience! You would ask "If someone were to give there life to Christ and walk out of the church and get hit by a car would they go to heaven or hell?

To be direct and to the point, I would either say "Yes or No". Then we could get into the reasoning behind it, if you wanted! But please I dont want to debate Baptism again in here!

So please, If I beleive in the Christ of the Bible without the understanding he is 2nd, and I died, would I go to hell? You can answer that if your not ashamed to stand upon what you truely believe!


Second:
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--You want us to comment on your salvation. The heart is deceitful. Only you can know about your relationship between you and God, not anyone else on this board. "If I..." statements lead to fruitless discussion.[/quote]

So what you are saying, you will never know if someone else is truely saved?

Third:
There is a flaw in your soteriology.
"...and am obedient" Salvation is a one-time event not a process. It does not depend on progressive obedience. If you think it does then you believe in a works-based salvation and have more serious issues to discuss. [/quote]

So please answer my other question!

If we "Get Saved" and then 1 year later realize that we don't beleive that Jesus is 2nd do we loose our salvation?

Or, After that one Year I finally believe that Jesus was 2nd, is it at that point that I truely got saved?

Fourth:
"If I die before I have that revelation..."
In other words if you die before you have a Biblical understanding of who God/Christ is. That is what you need to know. Put it in practical terms. Every person is different. Here are some examples to show you what I am talking about:...

Everyone is different in their concept of Christ, God and Christianity. I don't know you, your heart, and even the state of your salvation. Only God does.
Unless a person puts his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as defined in the Bible, he cannot be saved.
I trust that helps.[/QUOTE]

This is why I use the hypothetical questions. B/c you don't know me. So when you try to avoid the question with that answer I then need to rephrase my question to help get a direct answer! So then I'm trying to paint a picture of someone who beleives everything else that you believe except for that Jesus is 2nd. I'm trying to paint a picture of the "Ideal" Christian who put their faith in Christ and for context purposes does have a perfect heart!

I'm just confused why you or anyone else refuses to give me a direct answer!

(ATTENTION, to anyone who thinks I'm being rude! In a debate, if you choose to take a certain side and continue in the debate, and if I ask for absolutes on your side and I will not let up until one is given, it's not me being rude or pompas or angry, or a school yard bully, or some Gangsta (lol) beating up on a little old lady! In this type of setting, and especially when we are talking about ones salvation, it's very important to state exactly what you beleive. I would rather be pounded with truth than to be serenaded with lies.)

 

[Stanedglass]

I cannot comment about your relationship with the Lord. That is between you and God. But you just commented on Christ being the second person of the trinity. That is who God manifest in the flesh is.

That's why we are not debating the Trinity! I know who Jesus is

We are only debating the fact that one has to know that Jesus is 2nd?

Let me be clear! I don't beleive that Jesus is 2nd in order! If they are co-equal I put no order to it! I beleive that Jesus is the Almgihty God, The Everlasting Father, The Great I AM, The First and Last, The One True God Jehovah, Our Creator, That which was, that which is and that which is to come, Our Redeemer, Our Saviour, Our High Priest. I beleive that these three are one!

 

[Stanedglass]

Annsni, can I be honest without hurting your feelings? I had no idea you were a female:flower: I do not apologize for how I've presented myself. If someone chooses to perceive me as something I'm totally not, I can't help that. My emotions are not in this debate! My knowledge of what I perceive truth to be is in this debate. I do offer my apologies that I don't put an LOL, FLower, smiley face, etc in everyone of my posts. I'm here to debate! That's what the topic of this forum is for! So please foregive me in the future if we discuss things and I'm not able to show my true self through my typeing! Just understand that I'm not mad! If i do get angry however I will let everyone know that I'm frustrated LOL.



I'm sorry to continue my tantrum (LOL) as some feel but I do have one more thing to add LOL

Yes, you will go to heaven or hell.



I answered you. As DHK said, if you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, then you believe that He is the second person of the Trinity.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and all the rest of what we've said then, yes, you will go to heaven. If you believe that Jesus is a great man, a god or whatever, you will not go to heaven. Jesus is God and that is a non-negotiable.

I agree with everything above except that Jesus is 2nd! Will I go to Heaven or Hell if I die right now? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Stanedglass]

How about you grow up, and be done with this tantrum -- period?Stanedglass: I grew up raised as a gentleman. We are antiques, a passing species, headed for extinction.

I am not ready to go extinct.

I do not know where you apparently got this idea that debate is a safe haven from manners. A lady ought to be treated with courtesy and respect -- period.

I am sure that follows will not bother you one bit. I am sure that somehow, you will find some way to excuse yourself and glory in yourself no matter what.

I am watching a 29-year old guy act like a overgrown teenager, throwing this huge tantram. I am 33 years old, and I would not have acted like you are 10 years ago. If one person suggested that I was not a Christian because of some trivial disagreement, I would have quietly thought `Well, s/he is wrong, but if that is what s/he really thinks, okay.' I would not have not have started a public whining session about it -- as you did.

I then saw him -- you -- badger a lady in this pathetic, adolescent-type tantrum. You have taken this tantrum too far.

You bet my emotions get into that. If they did not, I would not be a gentleman. I realize that you intended the above as an insult, but you made my day. Thank you.

"Rolls Eyes" LOL that's funny right there!

 

[Stanedglass]

But Who is the Jesus of the Bible?

Jesus is the Almgihty God, The Everlasting Father, The Great I AM, The First and Last, The One True God Jehovah, Our Creator, That which was, that which is and that which is to come, Our Redeemer, Our Saviour, Our High Priest.

Hmmm...not sure that the Apostle John would agree with you there eg: 1 John 4:1-3

Jesus is the Almgihty God, The Everlasting Father, The Great I AM, The First and Last, The One True God Jehovah, Our Creator, That which was, that which is and that which is to come, Our Redeemer, Our Saviour, Our High Priest.

He is God manifest in the Flesh! So all I have to do is believe and put my trust in God (John 8:24) and believe that he came in the Flesh (1 John 4).


Matt this is not directed to you, but it was said earlier about me adding conjectures into the equation. All I'm looking for is a simple yes or no! And when I give the hypothetical question, and say " If i believe in Jesus and put my trust in him and don't beleive that he is 2nd person will i go to heaven or hell?" Someone else comes in and says "well are you born again". And then I'm forced to put that into the equation.

Matt, John 8:24 is not all that I beleive that someone has to confess to go to heaven. But for this debates purpose, its the only verse we have. I assumed that everyone else would assume we know that Jesus is God manifest in the Flesh!:wavey: There's a wave so I dont get accused of shooting you with my internet revolver...LOL I wish they had a smiley of someone shaking hands! Just so I can let you know that I'm not mad! LOL

See, now when I'm sarcastic and friendly I'm going to get accused of making light of the situation! LOL

None of that was directed to you Matt!

 

[annsni]

So please, If I beleive in the Christ of the Bible without the understanding he is 2nd, and I died, would I go to hell? You can answer that if your not ashamed to stand upon what you truely believe!

But if you believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you know that He's God and part of the Trinity.

 

[annsni]

I just saw this today on Trevin Wax's blog:

http://trevinwax.com/2009/09/15/the-trinitarian-gospel-why-we-need-all-three-parts/

The gospel itself is a message about Jesus. But that message is for us.

There is also a Trinitarian layer to the gospel that needs to be recognized.

* God the Father justifies sinners by satisfying his own wrath through the death of Christ and by applying Christ’s righteousness to sinners who respond to him in faith.
* God the Son inaugurates the kingdom of God on earth through his life, death, and resurrection.
* God the Spirit breathes new life into sinners, giving us eternal life (”the life of the age to come”), uniting us to the community of faith, and empowering us to live in the world as a foretaste of the new creation.

Each of these aspects of the gospel should remain Christ-focused. Each points back to his life, death, and resurrection.
______________________________________________

We need to hold these three strands together. The gospel is about what God has done to reconcile the world to himself. It is about the kingdom being inaugurated through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is about the power of the Holy Spirit to transform us into a new creation.

 

[annsni]

Annsni, can I be honest without hurting your feelings? I had no idea you were a female:flower: I do not apologize for how I've presented myself. If someone chooses to perceive me as something I'm totally not, I can't help that. My emotions are not in this debate! My knowledge of what I perceive truth to be is in this debate. I do offer my apologies that I don't put an LOL, FLower, smiley face, etc in everyone of my posts. I'm here to debate! That's what the topic of this forum is for! So please foregive me in the future if we discuss things and I'm not able to show my true self through my typeing! Just understand that I'm not mad! If i do get angry however I will let everyone know that I'm frustrated LOL.

No worries. I'm a girl but I have 2 brothers and happen to be married to a man. I know men well and can handle them well. Your apology is accepted.

I agree with everything above except that Jesus is 2nd! Will I go to Heaven or Hell if I die right now? :smilewinkgrin:

See, you're hung up on this "second" thing. If you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, even if you don't understand that He's the second person of the Trinity, you DO believe that He's the second person of the Trinity.

 

[Matt Black]

The term '2nd Person' is not some random ordinal that's flung out by Christians to derail someone's salvation; it incorporates Jesus' eternal Sonship, His full Divinity and full humanity. It is essential therefore for the Christian to put his/her faith and trust in Christ as thus defined for him/her to be properly saved.

 

[Stanedglass]

No worries. I'm a girl but I have 2 brothers and happen to be married to a man. I know men well and can handle them well. Your apology is accepted.



See, you're hung up on this "second" thing. If you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, even if you don't understand that He's the second person of the Trinity, you DO believe that He's the second person of the Trinity.

No, LOL, I'm not hung up on the 2nd thing! DHK is. He said that if you dont beleive that Jesus is 2nd and in that order, then you do not beleive in the Jesus of the Bible and you cannot be saved!

I was just wanting him to be a little more blunt given a circumstance!

And that view goes completley against fundamental Baptist beliefs! I think that's why he refused to give the answer b/c that would put an absolute on something other than faith!

 

[DHK]

No, LOL, I'm not hung up on the 2nd thing! DHK is. He said that if you dont beleive that Jesus is 2nd and in that order, then you do not beleive in the Jesus of the Bible and you cannot be saved!

I was just wanting him to be a little more blunt given a circumstance!

And that view goes completley against fundamental Baptist beliefs! I think that's why he refused to give the answer b/c that would put an absolute on something other than faith!

I bluntly told you that if you believe that Jesus Christ is the one who came "manifest in the flesh" as you said he was, then you believe in the second person of the trinity! So what is your problem?

 

[annsni]

I bluntly told you that if you believe that Jesus Christ is the one who came "manifest in the flesh" as you said he was, then you believe in the second person of the trinity!

Exactly. Do you need to know numbers? NO! But if you know Who Jesus is, then you know His relationship in the Trinity.

 

[Stanedglass]

I bluntly told you that if you believe that Jesus Christ is the one who came "manifest in the flesh" as you said he was, then you believe in the second person of the trinity! So what is your problem?

You never said that bluntly. You said over and over that unless you beleive he is 2nd and in that order!

If you don't know that order, then the basic truth given in John 3:16 becomes meaningless.

I do not believe that Jesus is number 2 in order! But John 3:16 still means everything! Am I heretic b/c I don't believe Jesus is 2nd? Or Rather I'm saved b/c I put my complete trust in the Christ of the Bible who died was buried and rose again?

 

[billwald]

>Originally Posted by DHK
>If you don't know that order, then the basic truth given in John 3:16 becomes meaningless.

Assumes facts not in evidence. It is only a logical construct that God must sacrifice God in order that God might forgive humans.

Second, the text doesn't not specify the human writer of John 3:16. One may assume that God ordained it to be written but then God also ordained my favorite verse, "I'm going fishing."

 

[Jim1999]

One does not have to be a theologian to be saved! Understand the trinity? That is a first! There are long standing believers to-day who don't completely understand the trinity.

Not all the NT writers completely understood Jesus, let alone know the trinity. They were still looking for a military Messiah to return and establish a kingdom over the world! Not all understood how Jesus, who was God revealed in the flesh could literally die on the cross. Did He divest Himself of His deity for the moment? God is eternal!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

One does not have to be a theologian to be saved! Understand the trinity? That is a first! There are long standing believers to-day who don't completely understand the trinity.

Not all the NT writers completely understood Jesus, let alone know the trinity. They were still looking for a military Messiah to return and establish a kingdom over the world! Not all understood how Jesus, who was God revealed in the flesh could literally die on the cross. Did He divest Himself of His deity for the moment? God is eternal!

Cheers,

Jim

How about this: You can't deny the trinity and claimed to be christian.

 

[Eric B]

I do not believe that Jesus is number 2 in order! But John 3:16 still means everything! Am I heretic b/c I don't believe Jesus is 2nd? Or Rather I'm saved b/c I put my complete trust in the Christ of the Bible who died was buried and rose again?

OK, what I'm sensing here is that you might be arguing from a modalist position (Jesus is God, but not any "2nd person" because there is only one divine Person, who is named Jesus, and who played the "role" (mode) of Father and Spirit as well).

We are a bit divided on that, as far as salvation. Some will say you MUST believe in the Nicene concept (of "first/second/third co-equal, co-eternal distinct 'Persons'") to be saved. They will not call it the Nicene position, but say it is the Biblical position, based on scriptures mentioning the three separately, like Christ's baptism, Great Commission, and 2Cor 13:14.
Many will even follow the "historic church", which had condemned modalism along with Arianism and unitarianism; hence, they will see all of those concepts as equally "false Christs" that cannot save.

Others will grant a possible exception to modalism, because out of all the alternate concepts, it is the only one that holds Christ as fully God, at least in initial theory. Like even Hank Hanegraaf of CRI, when addressing Oneness Pentecostals will say that some are saved despite the doctrine, rather than because of it (as the more radical Oneness people will claim).
I would follow this latter crowd, because I had studied how the specific "person-count" system had developed in the first few centuries. Even Hanegraaf and James White admit that the Church went into more specific though less biblical statements to "force the hands" of those who tried to stick to scriptural statements alone, but came up with false concepts of Christ such as Arianism.

However, the position still raises other problems we point out even if we tolerate it. The main issue with modalism is what it does with the instances of Christ talking to the Father. Whan really pressed on this, they often end up distinguishing the human Christ from the divine, and you end up, basically, with the unitarian or psilanthropist position (Paul of Samosata, etc), which in practice denies Christ's divinity. Now that won't pass with anyone here. Hence, many insist the "second person" concept is the only safe one.

 

[Stanedglass]

How about this: You can't deny the trinity and claimed to be christian.

How about this! Where does it say that in the bible?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How about this! Where does it say that in the bible?

It doesn't. but the scriptures doesn't say a lot of things. Like where in the bible does it say to make Jesus your "Personal Lord and savior"?

 

[DHK]

It doesn't. but the scriptures doesn't say a lot of things. Like where in the bible does it say to make Jesus your "Personal Lord and savior"?

You are right.
And the Bible doesn't say that one must "invite Jesus into their heart."
And for those of us who believe in it, the Bible does not use the word "rapture."
For that matter the Bible doesn't even use the word trinity, but so far everyone here believes in it; some seem to deny certain aspects of it.
The Bible does not explicitly say that Christ was fully man and fully God at the same time. Where does it say that? But if you don't believe that I doubt if you are a saved person.