Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?

[Stanedglass]

I understand your point but show me where people had no idea of who Jesus was and committed their lives to him for salvation? Salvation from my point of view is everything from God's election to faith to acceptance of that faith to living that faith to obtaining the reward of that faith. So our soteriology is a little different.

So is a person not fully saved until they fully understand the trinity and the order there of?

Please tell me when a person is saved?

 

[Stanedglass]

The question is JohnV, what are they placing their faith in? If they do not know that Jesus Christ is God, that He died on the cross for their sins, and that He rose again in victory, just who are they placing their faith in? Without these, Jesus was a good man, a prophet or whatever - but He would not be the Jesus who saves us.

That's what we've been saying. If a person believes the Gospel and the Jesus Christ of that Gospel. Are they saved or not, or do they have to believe in that Jesus and understand that he's 2nd?

Why arn't you adding in 2nd to your qualifications of knowing Jesus above? Just curious!

 

[Stanedglass]

Your entire premise is wrong.
The Scripture does say that one must have knowledge before they are saved. They must have a knowledge of the gospel before they are saved. They just can't put their faith in nothing or some nebulous god. They must have a knowledge of the God of the Bible. That is imperative.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Look what Paul says. Salvation comes from a declaration of the gospel.
"I declare unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved. One is saved through the gospel. One must have knowledge before he is saved. This knowledge comes from man, and is not revealed by God. Thus the Great Commission. It is our obligation to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

And what is the gospel? Paul further defines it: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is what it is in a nutshell. That may need to be expanded on, of course. Knowledge must precede faith. The gospel must precede faith. And that knowledge does not come straight from God; it does not come from faith; it comes from some other person giving them the gospel.

Again, we must have knowledge of the Gospel. That Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the 3rd day. Where is it saying that we must believe that Jesus who is number two in the Trinity, died, was buried, and rose again.

 

[Stanedglass]

That is right. They must accept the basic knowledge of the gospel. They must have knowledge before salvation. That is a basic prerequisite before salvation occurs.

Don't read too much into the illustration that Jesus was using. He was simply speaking about faith. Faith always has an object. But faith is simply confidence or trust. Even at a very young age my children knew who they could trust. In a crowd of people they hung onto us, their parents. They trusted us, not others; they had confidence in us, not strangers; they had confidence in us to protect them, guide them, feed them, etc.; not in others.
Jesus is illustrating the same thing. Have the simplicity of the faith of a child. But the object of that faith must be Christ, and it must be the Christ of the Bible, not any other Christ or god.
If Christ is not the second person of the Godhead then he is not God at all.

If someone else puts their faith in the Christ of the Bible before knowing anything about (according to you) "his position" we still have put our faith in the christ of the bible.

If I met Barak Obama (although I really dont care to LOL) and did not know he was the President...Did i still meet the President?

 

[Stanedglass]

So you're saying we need to be ignorant in order to be saved? I seriously doubt that's what Jesus is saying here.

Ignorant Faith in Jesus is the best kind. Just like little Children! B/c no matter what we believe or think, we do as he says!

But what if it's a nice round white piece of cement? We do need to know what we're putting our faith in. Not everyone saying "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. The key is Who are we putting our faith in and does He know us.

The nice white round piece of cement would sink before we grab it!

 

[Stanedglass]

Your back to square one where the discussion began. Do we need to go through everything again.
"We only need to know that he is God." That is a false statement.
To the Muslim Allah is God.
To the Buddha, his god is Buddha.
To the J.W. Jehovah is God, but Christ is only an angel.
To the Mormon Christ is a created being.

No, we need to know more than he is God.

You are right. Square one ws founded upon the Scripture of believing that Jesus was God. Not that he was 2nd!

DHK, you like the UFC? Just a personal question! Trying to get to know you a little better! Has nothing to do with debate or you as a Christian, just curious!

 

[DHK]

In his humanity, there was rank! But in diety there is none! If they are co-equal, where is rank?

They have always been co-equal and there always has been rank; not that one is more important than the other; but rank as in functionality and in position and order--not importance or equality.

What did Stephen see (which gives us a picture of what is the present):

Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Jesus sits on the right hand of God. I believe he stood on this occasion as a special welcome to Stephen the first martyr of the Christian faith. There is much about the trinity that we don't understand. I don't ask you to try and understand it all. I just ask you to accept some very basic facts that are presented over and over again throughout Scripture: that there are three persons in one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (in that order), and that these three are one. They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal, having different functions and purposes, and yet are three distinct persons, but at the same time being one God. I could give you a much more detailed definition but this is a simple one.

God the Father is first. God the Son in His glorified body sits at His right hand. And then their remains God the Spirit. We don't understand. We will understand more when we get to heaven. There are some things we will never understand but must accept by faith. The trinity helps to define God and differentiate him from other false religions.

 

[Stanedglass]

I have already explained using 1Cor.15:1-4 that much more is need than that.

But it never said we had to have knowledge of the Trinity, just the Gospel!

 

[DHK]

If someone else puts their faith in the Christ of the Bible before knowing anything about (according to you) "his position" we still have put our faith in the christ of the bible.

If I met Barak Obama (although I really dont care to LOL) and did not know he was the President...Did i still meet the President?

If you assumed that he was #2 you would be wrong. And your perception of the President would be wrong. In a nation like Pakistan they have both Prime-Minister and President.

And in Britain, as you probably know, they have both Queen and Prime-Minister. It is important to know who is #1 and #2. If you don't know, it could get you into some political trouble.

 

[DHK]

But it never said we had to have knowledge of the Trinity, just the Gospel!

A knowledge of the gospel, as you full well know, involves a knowledge of who Christ is. He is not the Christ of the J.W.'s, for example.

 

[Stanedglass]

Rather you have isolated one verse of Scripture and have based your theology on it which has resulted in a warped view of soteriology.

What else did Jesus say? What else does the Bible say about salvation?

In 1Cor.15:1-4, Paul said, "I declare unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved."
How can you ignore such a straight forward statement--that you need the gospel to be saved, not simply to believe that Christ is God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith. Another important part of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--One of the clearest passages on salvation there is:
We are saved by grace (the grace of God) through faith. Through faith in what? Through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, in his atoning work on the cross. It is not of works. It is entirely by faith. It is by the grace provided by Christ, a gift that we don't deserve, but Christ provided it anyway even though we are wicked sinners undeserving of this precious gift of eternal life. There is more to it than just believing that Christ is God.

Jesus said to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was not born of God. I think that Nicodemus believed that Christ was the Messiah, (God), but that didn't make him saved. He had to be born again. But what did that mean. Jesus launches into a discourse of what it means to be born again. Do you know what it means to be born again? If you do not perhaps you are not saved. It is the only way to heaven. One must be born again or there is no way to heaven. It is not simply believing that Jesus is God.

Much more is needed than simply believing that Christ is God.

To hang all your theology on just one verse of Scripture results in a warped view of God and Christ.

And we need to add being born again in there! (John 3)

And Repentance and Baptism in there (Acts 2:38)

I'm just using that verse to say "You don't have to beleive that Jesus is 2nd, only that he is God!

All the other things like baptism, Repentance, Works, etc...not in this thread! Just want you to know that I'm not just limiting my self to John 8:24.

But for this debate, John 8:24 is all the scripture I need!

 

[Stanedglass]

Then what meaning could it possibly have?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God the Father gave God the Son. The first person of the Godhead sacrificing the second--a father/son relationship. There is no other way it can be taken.

I know I've said alot trying to play catch up. I addressed this in another post on down. Hopefully you found it by now...LOL

 

[DHK]

But for this debate, John 8:24 is all the scripture I need!

No it isn't. That is not all that is required for salvation. That is a wrong view of soteriology. That is all there is to it.
You must be born again, Jesus said. He said it three times. Don't you ever wonder why?

 

[Stanedglass]

It is an OT passage, a prophecy about the coming of Christ.

And your point is???? LOL

Old Testament prophecys are true!

 

[DHK]

And your point is???? LOL

Old Testament prophecys are true!

Yes their true. We can go back and forth quoting Scripture about the deity of Christ, which that verse does. But I thought you were more concerned with Christ being the second person of the trinity.

 

[Stanedglass]

They have always been co-equal and there always has been rank; not that one is more important than the other; but rank as in functionality and in position and order--not importance or equality.

What did Stephen see (which gives us a picture of what is the present):

Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Jesus sits on the right hand of God. I believe he stood on this occasion as a special welcome to Stephen the first martyr of the Christian faith. There is much about the trinity that we don't understand. I don't ask you to try and understand it all. I just ask you to accept some very basic facts that are presented over and over again throughout Scripture: that there are three persons in one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (in that order), and that these three are one. They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal, having different functions and purposes, and yet are three distinct persons, but at the same time being one God. I could give you a much more detailed definition but this is a simple one.

God the Father is first. God the Son in His glorified body sits at His right hand. And then their remains God the Spirit. We don't understand. We will understand more when we get to heaven. There are some things we will never understand but must accept by faith. The trinity helps to define God and differentiate him from other false religions.

The simple one is sufficient enough. I know the long version too...LOL.

But the fact remains, there isn't any scripture that says you need to beleive that Jesus is 2nd to be saved.

 

[Stanedglass]

If you assumed that he was #2 you would be wrong. And your perception of the President would be wrong. In a nation like Pakistan they have both Prime-Minister and President.

And in Britain, as you probably know, they have both Queen and Prime-Minister. It is important to know who is #1 and #2. If you don't know, it could get you into some political trouble.

Then is Jesus number one in your life or number 2? :tonofbricks:

 

[Stanedglass]

No it isn't. That is not all that is required for salvation. That is a wrong view of soteriology. That is all there is to it.
You must be born again, Jesus said. He said it three times. Don't you ever wonder why?

So if all I have to do is be born again, do i have to have to know Jesus is the 2nd person in the Trinity? Am i born again the moment i get the revelation of the Trinity? Or the moment I put my trust in the Jesus who died, was buried and rose again?

 

[Stanedglass]

Yes their true. We can go back and forth quoting Scripture about the deity of Christ, which that verse does. But I thought you were more concerned with Christ being the second person of the trinity.

Well, you kept quoting Mat 28:19 and 1st John 5:7 that said that the Father was always first and Jesus was always number 2.

I thought it added an intresting touch to the subject b/c now Jesus is prophesied as being the Almighty God and Everlasting Father. So with your logic behind this, that would put Jesus as the Father in 1st place!

I'm not trying to debate diety, just position as you stated earlier!

 

[Stanedglass]

WOW, I'm caught up finally, now I have to take my kids to the park so i can get behind again!