If you don't know that order, then the basic truth given in John 3:16 becomes meaningless.
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Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?
- Thread starter Stanedglass
- Start date
So let's get this straight. You have someone who has never cracked open a Bible, who have never been told about the Trinity, who has never set inside a church, who gets down on his knees at a moment of dispair in his life, and says "Jesus, I don't know a thing about you, but I need you. Please heal me. I commit my life to you."
According to some, that person isn't saved?
According to some, that person isn't saved?
That is only one other passage of Scripture I have added to in addition to the others: John 3:16 being the latest.
God sent his only begotten son.
What does that mean in the light of the trinity?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Unless they had some understanding of who Jesus is, I don't think they would get to that point. How would they know they need to "commit" their life to Jesus? A person may get close to that from a polytheistic point of view. Ie I've tried Buddism, and Taoism, and Islam, and nothing worked. Maybe Christianity will. Then pray to the Christian God to help them. Are they saved or are they at the point that the Holy Spirit is softening their heart for full revelation of truth?
That's somewhat of a presumption. A lot of people have committed their lives to Christ, and AFTER doing so, get to know him through the study of scripture.
Salvation is the beginning of truth revelation, not the end of truth revelation.
The Father sent the Son.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
The Son's will was completely submitted to the Father's as a son's ought to be.
There is obvious rank here. They are co-eternal and co-existent. But here the Son submits himself the Father, the first person. To have it any other way would be backwards and illogical.
But if they don't know Jesus, how can they have faith in Him?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I understand your point but show me where people had no idea of who Jesus was and committed their lives to him for salvation? Salvation from my point of view is everything from God's election to faith to acceptance of that faith to living that faith to obtaining the reward of that faith. So our soteriology is a little different.
A lot of people have "committed" their lives to Christ at events like Billy Graham Crusades and were never saved at all. They were sent back to their own churches (RCC, Anglican, whatever they might have been), knowing that they may have had some emotional experience with hundreds of others in a great crowd, but knowing nothing (or very little) about the Christ that they put their faith in, or what he did on the cross.
I've been through the Alpha course, while attending a United Methodist Church...I thought it was a well laid out course. My wife and I both enjoyed it.
In XC
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Deleted post - wrong thread - d'oh!
That's a whole separate topic. I'm not talking about people who appear to commit their lives to Christ, I'm talking people who choose the gift of salvation by faith, long before they've ever cracked open a bible, attended a church, etc. They might not know squate about what the trinity means, but learn about it after they're saved, through study of the Word. The implication here is that a person can't be saved until they have a certain level of prior knowlege. Yet scripture doesn't say you're saved throuhg knowlege, scripture says your'e saved through faith. Knowlege of God comes from faith, not the other way around.
The question is JohnV, what are they placing their faith in? If they do not know that Jesus Christ is God, that He died on the cross for their sins, and that He rose again in victory, just who are they placing their faith in? Without these, Jesus was a good man, a prophet or whatever - but He would not be the Jesus who saves us.
They're placing their faith in the Christ whom they don't know, but want to know. That's different than knowing of Christ and rejecting him.
You don't have to know how the boat works in order to get into it.
Your entire premise is wrong.
The Scripture does say that one must have knowledge before they are saved. They must have a knowledge of the gospel before they are saved. They just can't put their faith in nothing or some nebulous god. They must have a knowledge of the God of the Bible. That is imperative.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Look what Paul says. Salvation comes from a declaration of the gospel.
"I declare unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved. One is saved through the gospel. One must have knowledge before he is saved. This knowledge comes from man, and is not revealed by God. Thus the Great Commission. It is our obligation to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
And what is the gospel? Paul further defines it: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is what it is in a nutshell. That may need to be expanded on, of course. Knowledge must precede faith. The gospel must precede faith. And that knowledge does not come straight from God; it does not come from faith; it comes from some other person giving them the gospel.
No, but you have to know the RIGHT boat.
1 Cor isn't a litmust text for what a person must know prior to become saved, it is an instruction for what a person must accept as a part of being saved.
Juxtapose it when Jesus saying the we msut be as children to enter the Kingdom. The children' didn't know or care about the trinity, didn't know if Jesus was part of the Godhead or not, they just knew Jesus loved them.
If you're drowning in a river, and someone throws you a life preserver, it's not a requirement to read the instruction manual first. You can read it once you get it on and are safe.
Juxtapose it when Jesus saying the we msut be as children to enter the Kingdom. The children' didn't know or care about the trinity, didn't know if Jesus was part of the Godhead or not, they just knew Jesus loved them.
Not disputing that at all. But you don't need to know how the boat works to believe it's the right boat, or to step into it. Besides, when it comes to salvation, there's only one boat.
If you're drowning in a river, and someone throws you a life preserver, it's not a requirement to read the instruction manual first. You can read it once you get it on and are safe.
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That is right. They must accept the basic knowledge of the gospel. They must have knowledge before salvation. That is a basic prerequisite before salvation occurs.
Don't read too much into the illustration that Jesus was using. He was simply speaking about faith. Faith always has an object. But faith is simply confidence or trust. Even at a very young age my children knew who they could trust. In a crowd of people they hung onto us, their parents. They trusted us, not others; they had confidence in us, not strangers; they had confidence in us to protect them, guide them, feed them, etc.; not in others.
Jesus is illustrating the same thing. Have the simplicity of the faith of a child. But the object of that faith must be Christ, and it must be the Christ of the Bible, not any other Christ or god.
If Christ is not the second person of the Godhead then he is not God at all.