Actually, that's a perfect example. Your children don't know anything about their parent other than there's comfort in their care. They don't need to know about genetics, legal guardianship, or anything else. They don't need to know what makes a parent a parent or a child a child. They just put blind faith in their parents. It's likewise okay for someone to put blind faith in Christ and accept salvation. Once they do that, they can get into learning about what constitutes the trinity, godhead, messianic nature of Christ, and so on and so on.
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Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?
- Thread starter Stanedglass
- Start date
1 Cor isn't a litmust text for what a person must know prior to become saved, it is an instruction for what a person must accept as a part of being saved.
Juxtapose it when Jesus saying the we msut be as children to enter the Kingdom. The children' didn't know or care about the trinity, didn't know if Jesus was part of the Godhead or not, they just knew Jesus loved them.
So you're saying we need to be ignorant in order to be saved? I seriously doubt that's what Jesus is saying here.
Not disputing that at all. But you don't need to know how the boat works to believe it's the right boat, or to step into it. Besides, when it comes to salvation, there's only one boat.
Yes, there is only one boat for salvation but many, MANY boats claiming to be the right one. There might be only one boat going to heaven but all of the others claim to be that too. Which one is it? We know when we know Who the captain is.
If you're drowning in a river, and someone throws you a life preserver, it's not a requirement to read the instruction manual first. You can read it once you get it on and are safe.
But what if it's a nice round white piece of cement? We do need to know what we're putting our faith in. Not everyone saying "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. The key is Who are we putting our faith in and does He know us.
That is right. They must accept the basic knowledge of the gospel. They must have knowledge before salvation. That is a basic prerequisite before salvation occurs.
Don't read too much into the illustration that Jesus was using. He was simply speaking about faith. Faith always has an object. But faith is simply confidence or trust. Even at a very young age my children knew who they could trust. In a crowd of people they hung onto us, their parents. They trusted us, not others; they had confidence in us, not strangers; they had confidence in us to protect them, guide them, feed them, etc.; not in others.
Jesus is illustrating the same thing. Have the simplicity of the faith of a child. But the object of that faith must be Christ, and it must be the Christ of the Bible, not any other Christ or god.
If Christ is not the second person of the Godhead then he is not God at all.
Amen, DHK....
Stanedglass
New Member
How can you have faith in what you don't know?
Is not what but who. Most people dont fully know Jesus when they come to him. The Bible says (John 6:44) No man comes to him unless the Father Draws him.
The Spirit of God draws us long before we truely understand who he is. In John 1:11 we are told "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name"!
All we have to do upon being drawn is receive him. We do not have to understand everything about the Godhead! We only need to know that he is God! (John 8:24, John 1)
Your back to square one where the discussion began. Do we need to go through everything again.Is not what but who. Most people dont fully know Jesus when they come to him. The Bible says (John 6:44) No man comes to him unless the Father Draws him.
The Spirit of God draws us long before we truely understand who he is. In John 1:11 we are told "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name"!
All we have to do upon being drawn is receive him. We do not have to understand everything about the Godhead! We only need to know that he is God! (John 8:24, John 1)
"We only need to know that he is God." That is a false statement.
To the Muslim Allah is God.
To the Buddha, his god is Buddha.
To the J.W. Jehovah is God, but Christ is only an angel.
To the Mormon Christ is a created being.
No, we need to know more than he is God.
Stanedglass
New Member
let me ask it this way. Can you be saved and not believe Jesus is God? In the same way can you be saved and not believe Jesus was man just as he was God and had the ability to die for our sins? The trinity is so fundamental to our faith that if you believe anything apart from it you are not saved. Its like saying the bible isn't the word of God or that Jesus did not die for my sins. Thats not to say you have to understand the intricacies of it but a general knowledge and acceptance of it.
That's an opinion! Please show me scripture where it says that! The only knowledge we have to have is that Jesus is God (John 8:24).
I have already explained using 1Cor.15:1-4 that much more is need than that.That's an opinion! Please show me scripture where it says that! The only knowledge we have to have is that Jesus is God (John 8:24).
Stanedglass
New Member
I think that to commit your life to Jesus then you need to know Who Jesus is. Committing your life to Him is a massive step and not to be taken lightly. It is impossible to understand what you are doing then unless you know Who He is, at least in outline. You must know, for example, that He is God and was not just a man, that He died on the cross for our sins, and that He rose again. Nothing about salvation makes any real sense unless those facts about Him are known and believed ie: there is no salvation in committing your life to just a holy man, just one of God's many prophets, or to someone who only appeared to die or who died and didn't rise again; indeed, I would question the point of attempting to commit your life to such an individual. Therefore I think that those who do commit their lives specifically to Jesus (as opposed to 'God' generally), do have some correct understanding of Who Jesus is.
Sounds to me that salvation to you is a progressional thing! Is that true? Fundamentally speaking, according to the Baptist Belief, you are saved and filled the moment you Believe in Jesus of the Bible.
Like I said earlier, If you come to Christ and are saved by faith the moment you believe and then later you decide that you beleive in Jesus but he's really not in 2nd place, then you loose your salvation! Which is against the fundamental belief that most baptist hold to "Once saved always saved!
Commiting and having Faith in someone are two different things! I'm not sure where you stand personally on this, but Commiting to some would equal works. It's something we do! And then your back to the arguement that well...are you saying you are saved by works?
We only need to believe that Jeus is God (John 8:24) If you say that we need to beleive that Jesus is 2nd then you are adding to scripture!
Rather you have isolated one verse of Scripture and have based your theology on it which has resulted in a warped view of soteriology.We only need to believe that Jeus is God (John 8:24) If you say that we need to beleive that Jesus is 2nd then you are adding to scripture!
What else did Jesus say? What else does the Bible say about salvation?
In 1Cor.15:1-4, Paul said, "I declare unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved."
How can you ignore such a straight forward statement--that you need the gospel to be saved, not simply to believe that Christ is God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith. Another important part of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--One of the clearest passages on salvation there is:
We are saved by grace (the grace of God) through faith. Through faith in what? Through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, in his atoning work on the cross. It is not of works. It is entirely by faith. It is by the grace provided by Christ, a gift that we don't deserve, but Christ provided it anyway even though we are wicked sinners undeserving of this precious gift of eternal life. There is more to it than just believing that Christ is God.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was not born of God. I think that Nicodemus believed that Christ was the Messiah, (God), but that didn't make him saved. He had to be born again. But what did that mean. Jesus launches into a discourse of what it means to be born again. Do you know what it means to be born again? If you do not perhaps you are not saved. It is the only way to heaven. One must be born again or there is no way to heaven. It is not simply believing that Jesus is God.
Much more is needed than simply believing that Christ is God.
To hang all your theology on just one verse of Scripture results in a warped view of God and Christ.
No, I'm saying that being completely devoid of ignornace is not a salvific prerequisite.So you're saying we need to be ignorant in order to be saved?
No, there's only one boat. A drowning person knows what the boat is when he sees it. He doesn't need to have an understanding of the user's manual before getting in.Yes, there is only one boat for salvation but many, MANY boats claiming to be the right one.
Stanedglass
New Member
I have already explained using 1Cor.15:1-4 that much more is need than that.
1Cr 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Yes, we have to believe the Gospel. I stated that in all my earlier post! "We must believe in the Jesus who died, was buried, and rose again!
These verses are not telling us that we need to believe that Jesus 2nd in order to be saved!
Stanedglass
New Member
Actually, I think the premise that is being challenged is that in order to be saved you have to believe and understand that the three Persons of the Godhead, or Trinity, are assigned certain numeric values and you have to believe these numbers are assigned as follows - The Father -1, The Son, Jesus - 2, Holy Spirit - 3.
Just believing that Jesus is God, or that there are three Persons in the Godhead or Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, is not enough. You have to believe they are assigned numbers and know what the numbers are.
Thanks for getting us back on topic!
Stanedglass
New Member
If you don't know that order, then the basic truth given in John 3:16 becomes meaningless.
No it doesn't!
Stanedglass
New Member
How is that order less definitive than the scriptures you refer to?
B/c it's contridicting!
Then what meaning could it possibly have?No it doesn't!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God the Father gave God the Son. The first person of the Godhead sacrificing the second--a father/son relationship. There is no other way it can be taken.
Stanedglass
New Member
That is only one other passage of Scripture I have added to in addition to the others: John 3:16 being the latest.
God sent his only begotten son.
What does that mean in the light of the trinity?
That he is still GOD! Just b/c he is the only begotten son doesn't make him 2nd.
If we really want to go there, Jeus is considered the " The Almighty God, The Everlasing Father" in Isa 9:6. So what does that mean in the light of the Trinity?
It is an OT passage, a prophecy about the coming of Christ.That he is still GOD! Just b/c he is the only begotten son doesn't make him 2nd.
If we really want to go there, Jeus is considered the " The Almighty God, The Everlasing Father" in Isa 9:6. So what does that mean in the light of the Trinity?
Stanedglass
New Member
But if they don't know Jesus, how can they have faith in Him?
So if someone testifies of Jesus, his life, death, burial, and ressurection, and I believe that, and I call upon the Name of the Lord to save me. Does that mean God did not save me? B/c I did not know he was 2nd?
Stanedglass
New Member
The Father sent the Son.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
The Son's will was completely submitted to the Father's as a son's ought to be.
There is obvious rank here. They are co-eternal and co-existent. But here the Son submits himself the Father, the first person. To have it any other way would be backwards and illogical.
In his humanity, there was rank! But in diety there is none! If they are co-equal, where is rank?