Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?

[Stanedglass]

It doesn't. but the scriptures doesn't say a lot of things. Like where in the bible does it say to make Jesus your "Personal Lord and savior"?

My point exactly! It doesn't!

And we are not told to make Jesus your personal Lord and Savior! A relationship with him will grow into a personal relationship and He will become your Lord and Savior. But we obtain that by being born again and obeying the Gospel! (John 3, 1 Cor 15)

 

[DHK]

My point exactly! It doesn't!

And we are not told to make Jesus your personal Lord and Savior! A relationship with him will grow into a personal relationship and He will become your Lord and Savior. But we obtain that by being born again and obeying the Gospel! (John 3, 1 Cor 15)

As long as one believes salvation is a progressive event, that is that he is not initially saved, how can he be a saved individual? Salvation is a one time event. It is like marriage. I can remember the date, the event, even the time of my wedding. I remember who was there, the pastor that performed the ceremony, and most other details. If you ask me if my wedding is still going on, I think you would be nuts. My wedding was a one time event.

When I got saved, I became part of the bride of Christ. It was a one time event. I can remember where I was, the date, and even the time. I can remember the person who explained to me the way of salvation--a message that I had never heard before--after having been in the Catholic Church for 20 years. That day I prayed and trusted Christ as my Saviour. Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit came and took up residence within me. If you want Scripture here it is.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
--It was the day that I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (that is the message of Christ, his person and work).

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
--It is the day I called upon his name. My belief was from my heart. It was genuine.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
--Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit came and took up residence within me. My body is now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

We are allowed to put our testimony in words a little different than the Bible uses to express our salvation experience. There is nothing wrong with saying "I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour; I invited him into my heart;" That is what these verses teach.

Just as these verses teach that, the Scripture also teaches that Christ is the 2nd person of the trinity, and that cannot be avoided.

Who is Christ? If you don't know who Christ is, how can you believe on him?

 

[annsni]

My point exactly! It doesn't!

And we are not told to make Jesus your personal Lord and Savior! A relationship with him will grow into a personal relationship and He will become your Lord and Savior. But we obtain that by being born again and obeying the Gospel! (John 3, 1 Cor 15)

Wait - you say that a relationship will grow and THEN He'll be our Savior? I don't see that idea supported in Scripture. I see it as an event that happens at the moment of belief and faith - not a progressive "and then if you keep up with it" sort of thing.

 

[Stanedglass]

Wait - you say that a relationship will grow and THEN He'll be our Savior? I don't see that idea supported in Scripture. I see it as an event that happens at the moment of belief and faith - not a progressive "and then if you keep up with it" sort of thing.

Sorry about that, I just read back over that, I understand how that sounded! Let me restate!

We are not told that we must make Jesus our personal Lord and savior to be saved! We are told that we must be born again (John 3:5) his spirit comes and takes up Resident within us. Then we begin to Fall in Love with our Savior and a Personal Relationship matures more and more, trial after trial, victory after victory!

 

[Stanedglass]

As long as one believes salvation is a progressive event, that is that he is not initially saved, how can he be a saved individual? Salvation is a one time event. It is like marriage. I can remember the date, the event, even the time of my wedding. I remember who was there, the pastor that performed the ceremony, and most other details. If you ask me if my wedding is still going on, I think you would be nuts. My wedding was a one time event.

When I got saved, I became part of the bride of Christ. It was a one time event. I can remember where I was, the date, and even the time. I can remember the person who explained to me the way of salvation--a message that I had never heard before--after having been in the Catholic Church for 20 years. That day I prayed and trusted Christ as my Saviour. Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit came and took up residence within me. If you want Scripture here it is.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
--It was the day that I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (that is the message of Christ, his person and work).

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
--It is the day I called upon his name. My belief was from my heart. It was genuine.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
--Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit came and took up residence within me. My body is now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

We are allowed to put our testimony in words a little different than the Bible uses to express our salvation experience. There is nothing wrong with saying "I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour; I invited him into my heart;" That is what these verses teach.

Just as these verses teach that, the Scripture also teaches that Christ is the 2nd person of the trinity, and that cannot be avoided.

So since I don't believe that Jesus is 2nd am I a heretic?

Who is Christ? If you don't know who Christ is, how can you believe on him?

Is this just something to think about or do I need to address it...LOL


My good fellow, But the way you were debating the order, you make it sound as though you cannot be saved without understanding the order!

Which lead me to make the statement before! If one believes in the Jesus of the Bible and Believes on the Lord but does not understand that he's 2nd then he's not saved! Therefore, it would be progressive Salvation until he understood that order!

 

[DHK]

Which lead me to make the statement before! If one believes in the Jesus of the Bible and Believes on the Lord but does not understand that he's 2nd then he's not saved! Therefore, it would be progressive Salvation until he understood that order!

Are you going in circles just to be cantankerous? Your question has been answered many times.

 

[annsni]

Sorry about that, I just read back over that, I understand how that sounded! Let me restate!

We are not told that we must make Jesus our personal Lord and savior to be saved! We are told that we must be born again (John 3:5) his spirit comes and takes up Resident within us. Then we begin to Fall in Love with our Savior and a Personal Relationship matures more and more, trial after trial, victory after victory!

OK - Good. I was beginning to wonder....

 

[Marcia]

So since I don't believe that Jesus is 2nd am I a heretic?

Based on this statement and others, I am wondering if you are a Oneness Pentecostal? Are you?

 

[JSM17]

If Jesus is equal with the Father and the Spirit then were is all this number two stuff coming from?

 

[annsni]

If Jesus is equal with the Father and the Spirit then were is all this number two stuff coming from?

Equal but distinct. They can't all be the same person so there HAS to be a number. It's not second in importance but the second person.

 

[Marcia]

If Jesus is equal with the Father and the Spirit then were is all this number two stuff coming from?

I think Stainedglass means the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

 

[JSM17]

They can't all be the same person so there HAS to be a number. It's not second in importance but the second person.

Is there a passage backing that up?

 

[DHK]

Is there a passage backing that up?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[annsni]

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are three. So we say that each one is number one and then what do we do with the others? They are one God - but in three persons. When you have three then you count "One, two, three". Why is that so hard??

 

[DHK]

So we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are three. So we say that each one is number one and then what do we do with the others? They are one God - but in three persons. When you have three then you count "One, two, three". Why is that so hard??

There are three persons: yet one God. And they are always mentioned in the same order: first the Father, second the Son, and third the Holy Spirit. It is always:1,2,3; never: 1,1,1. Our God is a God of order. The entire universe teaches us about One who is an Intelligent Designer, and of He Himself who is very complex and orderly in his nature. But in that nature He has given clues to order, even rank (not importance).

There is the Father. The Father is always first--in almost any traditional family. God made the father the head of the house, and God patterned the church after the family. The family is the building block of society. It is a God-ordained institution. And God ordained that the man, the Father be the head of it. It is his order He is first.

The Son is second in rank. Christ, the Son, submitted himself to the Father.
The second person submitted Himself to the first person. These facts are irrefutable. Never do you see the persons of the trinity in any other order.
The Father/Son relationship is very important in the trinity as it is here on earth. In God's sight both earthly father and earthly son are just as important. But each one has a different role to play. The son must submit to the father. So it was with Christ when he came to earth.

Now Christ sits at the right hand of the throne of the Father in his resurrected body. His position is different than that of the Father. The position and purpose is different. Christ is a mediator for us; an intercessor for us; as is the Holy Spirit. They both interceded for us, on behalf of us to the Father. There is an obvious rank within the trinity.

Three persons--one God. Yes, they are co-equal, but they do have different functions. We can't understand everything about the trinity and never will. But that which has already been revealed to us we must accept by faith whether or no we understand it.

 

[Hawkins]

Basically I think that God will tell you who He is when you are second born with your salvation best secured.

I don't think that you need to understand God's nature in order to be saved. It is rather the opposite, that is, when you are saved, God will tell you who He is with His Trinity nature.

IMO, some very early Christians chose to follow our Lord and even those martyred, say in the first century, may not know His Trinity well. They knew/perceived Jesus's Deity though.

 

[BobRyan]

In another topic DHK and myself have engaged in a debate about the question that "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in the Godhead in order to be saved".

DHK's position is "Yes you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved". If you agree with him and wish to give me scripture that says "you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved" I welcome it.

My position is the bible does not state this at all but rather we must only believe that Jesus is the One True God (John 8:24). If you agree with me and have additional scripture please feel free to post as well!

This is not a thread to debate the Trinity but rather to show scripture that one must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved!

Again I say, this is not a thread debating the Trinity!

Again -- not questioning the Trinity at all -- I would argue that the list of OT saints in Heb 11 did not think "Jesus would be God" did not even KNOW the NAME "Jesus" etc. This includes people like Enoch and Elijah taken directly to heaven without dying and includes Moses who stands on the mount with Christ and Elijah in Matt 17.

It is "Appointed unto men once to die and then comes the judgment" according to Heb 9. This is a generic statement about mankind. No OT saint "got saved after they died" under the "ONE Gospel" plan of salvation (Gal 1:6-11) for it is in this life that they made their decisions for the Messiah and were either born again or were not. Christ affirmed this truth pre-cross to Nicodemus and stated that any teacher of Israel pre-cross should know this important fact. I believe Him.

Thus - it cannot be argued that doctrinal "information" about the name "Jesus" and the fact that He is the 2nd person of the Godhead was not a barrier to salvation. Further - Moses reports that God did not even tell HIS people about His name YHWH for 2000 years - much less the name "Jesus" for 4000 years unknown to the Saints as one of the names for God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

>My position is the bible does not state this at all but rather we must only believe that Jesus is the One True God (John 8:24).

If God intentionally designed his creation so that he could justify sending 80% of the human race to Hell then the bottom line must be that God always intended to send 80% of the human race to Hell. One doesn't intentionally design a process to have an 80% (or whatever) failure rate unless he is running Chrysler. <G> One works to maximize success. Either conventional Evangelical Christian interpretation of history is wrong or the Evangelical understanding of God is wrong and maybe our Muslim neighbors are or The Matrix is closer to the truth.

 

[Eric B]

There are three persons: yet one God. And they are always mentioned in the same order: first the Father, second the Son, and third the Holy Spirit. It is always:1,2,3;

Actually, that's not true. One of the scriptures I mentioned earlier, as the familiar traditional proof of the Trinity; the Doxology of 2 Cor 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen".

I think there were others as well. The point is not the order in which they were mentioned.

Again, I think the solution to this would be to look to pre-Nicene orthodoxy, which saw it more in terms of the Father being the Godhead itself, and the Son and spirit proceeding forth from Him. Just think, the Son and Spirit are the Son OF God, and the Spirit OF God, but there is no "Father OF God". This notion of "procession" is of course even reflected in the language of the creeds, even though the symmetry of "equality" became more important.

That way emphasizes the Father first, as well as the Son and Spirit's fully sharing the divine essence, without a rigid pecking order of "one, two, three".

 

[DHK]

Actually, that's not true. One of the scriptures I mentioned earlier, as the familiar traditional proof of the Trinity; the Doxology of 2 Cor 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen".

I think there were others as well. The point is not the order in which they were mentioned.

Or, perhaps it was.
Paul did not confine himself to speaking in a "credal language style." He wasn't limited in the way that he had to express himself. He was at liberty to express himself in his own style of writing. Thus your point is moot.

The point made is that when referring to the trinity, the order is always the same: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I have given Scripture for this, and I normally don't go outside of Scripture, or try not to. But this discussion is absurd. From the time of the Apostles, the RCC, the Orthodox, every Protestant denomination, and almost everything known under the umbrella of Christendom has always expressed the trinity as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in that order. No one has ever questioned it. I don't see any reason to question it now. What great theological mind is there here that is contradicting not only what the Bible teaches but basically what every theologian throughout history has been teaching since the apostles. The discussion is absurd. One or two people on this board stand against the rest of Christianity throughout the ages?? Amazing!