Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[Jordan Kurecki]

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Gill on vs 10

"When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body, "the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";'' which is what the apostle refers to here:"

Barnes on vs 10

"It means that when anything which is perfect is seen or enjoyed, then that which is imperfect is forgotten, laid aside, or vanishes. Thus, in the full and perfect light of day, the imperfect and feeble light of the stars vanishes. The sense here is, that “in heaven” - a state of absolute perfection - that which is “in part,” or which is imperfect, shall be lost in superior brightness. All imperfection will vanish. And all that we here possess that is obscure shall be lost in the superior and perfect glory of that eternal world. All our present unsatisfactory modes of obtaining knowledge shall be unknown. All shall be clear, bright, and eternal."

Clarke on vs 10

"The state of eternal blessedness; then that which is in part - that which is imperfect, shall be done away; the imperfect as well as the probationary state shall cease for ever."

Matthew Henry on vs 12

"God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1Jn 3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Psa 36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day."

Benson on vs 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come — As in the heavenly state it shall; then that which is only in part shall be done away — Both that poor, low, imperfect, glimmering light, which is all the knowledge we now can attain to, and these slow and unsatisfactory methods of attaining it, as well as of imparting it to others."

Wesley on vs 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come - At death and in the last day. That which is in part shall vanish away - Both that poor, low, imperfect, glimmering light, which is all the knowledge we now can attain to; and these slow and unsatisfactory methods of attaining, as well as of imparting it to others."

Matthew Poole on vs 10:

"But when we come to heaven, we shall be in such a state, as nothing shall or can be added to us; then our partial and imperfect knowledge shall be swallowed up in a knowledge perfect and complete."

I am beginning to think that Baptists have misinterpreted this passage as a knee jerk reaction to Pentecostal Charismatic madness...I do not see any contextual evidence for why "that which is perfect" is the word of God, in fact vs 12 seems at odds with this idea. and seems much more to favor the idea that the commentators state.

It seems that all the commentators prior to the popularization of the charismatic movement have interpreted this passage to be about being in heaven, or the eternal state, as opposed to the completion the canon of scripture. Now even if this is the correct interpretation it still does not give credence to all of the phony and false spiritual gifts exhibited in the charismatic movement.

Consider also : "Christ's Coming or Eschatological View. Taking "that which is complete" as occurring in the period when Christ returns has been by far the majority view of this passage throughout church history, and there are good reasons why this is the case, in addition to the obvious weaknesses of the canon and maturity views.

1. Teleios is best understood as "perfection" (rather than "maturity") in light of Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This could have been easily understood by the Corinthian readers.
2. The neuter form of teleios allows for understanding it as the state of perfection.....
3. "Face to face" is an Old Testament formula for a theophany which will occur following Christ's return, so that point seems to be the period of, or after Christ's return.
4. Being fully known will only be true after Messiah comes. Isaiah foresaw this time of Messiah's reign and the gathering of the nations (what we refer to as "the rapture") when, "the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9)"

http://www.jesuswalk.com/1corinthians/12_excursus-meaning-of-perfect-1cor13_10.htm

 

[TCassidy]

where no real effort is made to actually examine scripture

You must have missed my exposition of 1 Corinthians 13. A very "complete" examination of scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

• Teleios is best understood as "perfection" (rather than "maturity") in light of Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This could have been easily understood by the Corinthian readers.

I believe 'mature' is the best translation of Teleios in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as it is in 1 Corinthians 14:20 and Hebrews 5:14. Therefore to teleion would be rendered 'maturity.' In the infancy of Israel, in the desert, the Israelites had manna, and quail, the shoes did not wear out and their feet did not swell. When the entered Canaan, the manna ceased, and I presume that the other things did as well. So it was with the infant Church. Before the NT was written and distributed widely throughout the churches, certain people were given revelations to bring the word of God to the congregation. In 1 Cor. 14:29, the NIV says, 'Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully [what is said]' The words in brackets are in no ancient text. The prophets decided among themselves which two or three words should be brought to the congregation that week and which should be given later. It was the whole congregation that was to weigh carefully whether it was a genuine prophecy (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21).

• "Face to face" is an Old Testament formula for a theophany which will occur following Christ's return, so that point seems to be the period of, or after Christ's return.

I disagree. Numbers 12:6. 'When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions; I speak to him in dreams. But this is not so of My servant Moses: he is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.......' The Lord Jesus is the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15). The OT presented Christ and the way of salvation in types and figures; in the NT, we have the full revelation.
[QUOTE[

• Being fully known will only be true after Messiah comes. Isaiah foresaw this time of Messiah's reign and the gathering of the nations (what we refer to as "the rapture") when, "the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9)"

[/QUOTE]
We have the full revelation of God before us right now and the Holy Spirit to help us understand it.

I wrote an article on this subject some years ago. https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/cessationism-have-the-sign-gifts-ceased/

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Thanks for your thoughts Martin.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe 'mature' is the best translation of Teleios in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as it is in 1 Corinthians 14:20 and Hebrews 5:14.

I agree. Mature in the sense of "complete." Nothing lacking necessary to the whole.

 

[The Biblicist]

Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known".

I think the significant factor here is what tongues is being grouped with in verse 8. For example, "prophesy" is found repeatedly in chapter 14 as a revelatory gift. Tongues is a revelatory gift. Hence, the direct association with these two revelatory gifts with "knowledge" would indicate it also is to be interpreted within the same category. There was virtually no written revelation for church policy, new covenant administration or teaching at the writing of first corinthians.

The second obvious contextual factor is that love is being contrasted to these revelatory gifts with regard to longevity (v. 8a).

Verse 8 indicates with regard to longevity, tongues ceases prior to the other two revelatory gifts.

Verses 9-10 take up the point of longevity with regard to prophecy and knowledge which has the temporal value of being PARTIAL with regard to revelation. Their longevity is terminated by the coming of "that" which is perfect.

The proper understanding of "perfect" must be defined by immediate context. For example, these revelatory gifts are "IN PART" while "that" is not "in part" but is "perfect." Second, the immediate metaphor (v. 10) has to do with MATURITY rather than the second coming or a new world. Hence, there is a time for immature things and a time they must be put away which comes with maturity. Third, the second metaphor has to do with a contrast between means of revelation. There is no question that a mirror is an indirect means of revelation whereas "face to face" is a direct means of revelation. This language was used to describe the revelation provided to Moses that differed from that which was given to common prophets. Common prophets were provide revelation through indirect means (dreams, visions, etc.) where God spoke "face to face" with Moses by direct revelation.

Also there time terms of "now" versus "then" in context may refer to the apostolic period as the time of indirect revelatory gifts consummated by the completion of a more individual direct revelation - the completed inspired Word of God. During this "in part" period of time the average Christian had to depend upon revelation from God through indirect means, those among them with these gifts, whereas, "WHEN that which is perfect is come" no individual would have to depend on any other individual for revelation from God but would have it directly from God in written form for him/herself (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

The words "to know even as I am known" conveys the idea of direct revelation in contrast to indirect means. This has to be interpreted in context with the metaphors of maturity and mirror and is just another way to say the same thing in a different way.

Moreover, "now" in the apostolic period where there is no completed or mature direct personal revelation from God in written form, and they are dependent upon others, immature, in part revelatory gifts, yet "now" they have guiding principles (love, faith, hope) but primarily the "better way" of love to guide them in the proper use of these spiritual gifts.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I think the significant factor here is what tongues is being grouped with in verse 8. For example, "prophesy" is found repeatedly in chapter 14 as a revelatory gift. Tongues is a revelatory gift. Hence, the direct association with these two revelatory gifts with "knowledge" would indicate it also is to be interpreted within the same category. There was virtually no written revelation for church policy, new covenant administration or teaching at the writing of first corinthians.

The second obvious contextual factor is that love is being contrasted to these revelatory gifts with regard to longevity (v. 8a).

Verse 8 indicates with regard to longevity, tongues ceases prior to the other two revelatory gifts.

Verses 9-10 take up the point of longevity with regard to prophecy and knowledge which has the temporal value of being PARTIAL with regard to revelation. Their longevity is terminated by the coming of "that" which is perfect.

The proper understanding of "perfect" must be defined by immediate context. For example, these revelatory gifts are "IN PART" while "that" is not "in part" but is "perfect." Second, the immediate metaphor (v. 10) has to do with MATURITY rather than the second coming or a new world. Hence, there is a time for immature things and a time they must be put away which comes with maturity. Third, the second metaphor has to do with a contrast between means of revelation. There is no question that a mirror is an indirect means of revelation whereas "face to face" is a direct means of revelation. This language was used to describe the revelation provided to Moses that differed from that which was given to common prophets. Common prophets were provide revelation through indirect means (dreams, visions, etc.) where God spoke "face to face" with Moses by direct revelation.

Also there time terms of "now" versus "then" in context may refer to the apostolic period as the time of indirect revelatory gifts consummated by the completion of a more individual direct revelation - the completed inspired Word of God. During this "in part" period of time the average Christian had to depend upon revelation from God through indirect means, those among them with these gifts, whereas, "WHEN that which is perfect is come" no individual would have to depend on any other individual for revelation from God but would have it directly from God in written form for him/herself (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

The words "to know even as I am known" conveys the idea of direct revelation in contrast to indirect means. This has to be interpreted in context with the metaphors of maturity and mirror and is just another way to say the same thing in a different way.

Moreover, "now" in the apostolic period where there is no completed or mature direct personal revelation from God in written form, and they are dependent upon others, immature, in part revelatory gifts, yet "now" they have guiding principles (love, faith, hope) but primarily the "better way" of love to guide them in the proper use of these spiritual gifts.

That seems to make solid sense, however why is it that virtually none of the older commentators interpreted this passage that way? See Post number 61. Obviously they all could be wrong, but I am still wondering if perhaps they have it right and that we are misinterpreting based on a motivation to discount the charismatic movement, I don't really think the cessationist position really rises or falls solely on 1st Corinthians 13.

 

[John I Morris]

Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that?

This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known"

"The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to
a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament.
However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians.



1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[John I Morris]

As has already been said, I believe that 1 Corinthians 13:13 clears the matter right up; "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (love)." Verse 8 has "prophecies, tongues, and knowledge" they fail, cease, vanish away and now we have faith, hope and love. Pretty simple to me, but some try to support their view rather than dig into Scripture to see what it says.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for your thoughts Martin.

what revelatory knowledge would God have to give to us not found in the Bible then?

 

[The Biblicist]

That seems to make solid sense, however why is it that virtually none of the older commentators interpreted this passage that way? See Post number 61. Obviously they all could be wrong, but I am still wondering if perhaps they have it right and that we are misinterpreting based on a motivation to discount the charismatic movement, I don't really think the cessationist position really rises or falls solely on 1st Corinthians 13.

The charismatic movement has produced legions of improper interpretations that cause one to examine their proof texts more closely in light of their errors. Older commentators were not faced with that particular error. Sometimes it is the error that forces the commentator to examine a text more closely. However, you quote very few commentators which is far from being exhaustive of those commentators that could be quoted.

 

[Revmitchell]

I can't help but notice you left off verse 13 that proves the passing of the sign gifts.

How do we know as we are known? By looking into the perfect law of liberty.

James 1:25 But he that looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continues, being not a hearer that forgets but a doer that works, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

Uh no not even close. Good grief.

"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully"

Right now I know only in part, later at another time (then) I shall fully know. When is then? Then (later at another time) is when "that which is perfect shall come". We are no where described in scripture as being in the "then".

 

[percho]

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Cor 13:12

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

Relative to knowledge, do those two verses have the same meaning? Is the chronology of to two also the same?

 

[1689Dave]

Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

 

[TCassidy]

Right now I know only in part,

"Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of Truth."

later at another time (then) I shall fully know.

Later, Paul says he will have complete, mature understanding.

When is then?

Just like it says. "When the completion comes the partial will be set aside." And he closes out the chapter by saying "And NOW (when Paul was writing) abides faith, hope, and love, these three."

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

The charismatic movement has produced legions of improper interpretations that cause one to examine their proof texts more closely in light of their errors. Older commentators were not faced with that particular error. Sometimes it is the error that forces the commentator to examine a text more closely. However, you quote very few commentators which is far from being exhaustive of those commentators that could be quoted.

I quoted everyone I could find. Looked at every commentary I had on E-sword and none of them stated that the “that which is perfect” refers to Gods word.

 

[percho]

Heb 5:9
1 Cor 13:10/12 and then
Rom 8:29
1 John 3:2/8

The commentators, JK, posted are closer to the truth. IMHO.

 

[percho]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-12

Does the aorist of Heb 5:9 and 1 Cor 13:10 say and or imply that we will attain the perfection of the resurrected Christ? Romans 8:29?

I know, no Greek.

 

[1689Dave]

The writer of Hebrews places the gifts of the Spirit into the past tense. Which I believe helps determine Paul's use of "perfect" in 1 Corinthians.

“while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.” (Hebrews 2:4) (NET)

 

[percho]

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:40

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Cor 13:10

When yet may be coming the perfect,

What perfect?

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Could anyone be perfected before that took place?

then that which is in part shall be done away.
but then face to face:
when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.