Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[Yeshua1]

Why level this accusation at an invitation. False professions happen everywhere: in the home, prison ministries, in college (as where you were), at a Bible study group, everywhere. A false profession is not confined to an invitation at the end of a church service or at the end of a Billy Graham service. It all depends on the person's heart and their motivation for "being saved." Many do it for another reason, such as "pleasing their parents," "pressure from their pastor," "peer pressure," etc. But not all of these reasons are confined to a church setting.

Just saying that persons need to make sure and understand what is happening at that moment, as don;t need to see another person thinking all right with God, yet go right back to where they were at...

we do really undertake discipling in my church, so will ahve follow up, studies/prayers, and seek to get them plugegd into a local cell group!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I am not against issuing such, did that while involved in prison ministry, just wanting to make sure the person coming forward though really understands what he is doing there...

That's the job of the Holy Spirit, not you. You just be an instrument, let Him worry about whether the profession is valid or not. If it isn't, it's not going to be held against you.

Ar my church, part of the pastoral prayer team, who cousel and talk to those coming forward, and have prayed with others to receive Jesus, but make sure they understand what that means from the bible!

I understand that, and endorse it. But you can't "be sure" of anything other than you have adequately presented the gospel.

We just show them not be just soory, or want to feel better, or srying, its the time they will be receiving Jesus as their saviour!

And again, you can't control that, or know their heart. That's God's job.

 

[Yeshua1]

And how many, either by the numbers or percentages, do you think fit this scenario from among those who answered an altar call or invitation?

Too many! As there are many who think they came to jesus, got right with God, yet never really showed that their desires and affections had been changed...

I would say this falls upon the lcal church to a great extent, as they need to have proper instruction and discipleship, follow up!

 

[salzer mtn]

And how many, either by the numbers or percentages, do you think fit this scenario from among those who answered an altar call or invitation?

When a person gives the hope that lies within them as coming to the altar, none. The churches that practice altar calls in my neck of the woods have no clue what their doing. The preacher jesters toward the altar and says, come to Christ. The altar to some seems to be a holy place and hold a power to it. If you threw the altar out of the church, to them you have thrown God out of the church. The congregation comes to the altar and swarm around the seeker and you can't concentrate on prayer for all the screaming and shouting and yelling the prayers out to God, like he was deaf. Some tell the seeker to hold on, others say turn loose. When I was fifteen years old my uncle talked me into coming to an old fashion altar for prayer. I had no idea what I was doing up there. I knelt and leaned against the altar till my arms became numb and began to tingle. A woman came up to me and ask if I had received Jesus, I told her my arms were tingling, she said, praise god that's the Holy Ghost. My mother came up to me and said my name and if you don't understand, come back to your seat, thank God for mothers.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's the job of the Holy Spirit, not you. You just be an instrument, let Him worry about whether the profession is valid or not. If it isn't, it's not going to be held against you.I understand that, and endorse it. But you can't "be sure" of anything other than you have adequately presented the gospel.And again, you can't control that, or know their heart. That's God's job.

I agree 100 % with your posting here!

 

[salzer mtn]

I am not against issuing such, did that while involved in prison ministry, just wanting to make sure the person coming forward though really understands what he is doing there...

Ar my church, part of the pastoral prayer team, who cousel and talk to those coming forward, and have prayed with others to receive Jesus, but make sure they understand what that means from the bible!

We just show them not be just soory, or want to feel better, or srying, its the time they will be receiving Jesus as their saviour!

I worked in the juvenile and adult prison system for thirty two years and never saw a real conversion out of a convict. What I did see was con artist going to church services carrying bibles, making professions to look good on their record when they met the parole board. I sometimes wished the preachers could see them when they came back to the units, back to their old tricks, cussing and raising heck.

 

[Van]

4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a [a]child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and [c]managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the [d]elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under [e]the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under [f]the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir [g]through God.
Galatians 4:1-7 Nasb
Paul said that we are adopted as hiers and sons RIGHT now, do you agree with him then?

I can read, and hopefully, so can you. Might receive the adoption refers to a future action. As spiritual sons, we have been sealed with the Spirit of Adoption, i.e. our guarantee we will be adopted at Christ's second coming. No need to drag the Calvinist dog down the path yet again.

 

[Yeshua1]

I can read, and hopefully, so can you. Might receive the adoption refers to a future action. As spiritual sons, we have been sealed with the Spirit of Adoption, i.e. our guarantee we will be adopted at Christ's second coming. No need to drag the Calvinist dog down the path yet again.

right NOW we are the sons and daughters of God, and ONLY thsoe whom HAVE received this adoption as such can call Yahweh"daddy!"

Our adoption in the beloved right here and now, final consumation when raised glorified state!

 

[Van]

right NOW we are the sons and daughters of God, and ONLY thsoe whom HAVE received this adoption as such can call Yahweh"daddy!"

Our adoption in the beloved right here and now, final consumation when raised glorified state!

Again, you cannot seem to be able to read. Sons might receive indicated they were sons, but had not been adopted. You need to read Romans 8:23 until you figure out we are eagerly awaiting our adoption in the future. Calvinisms claim that adoption equals salvation is simply false. Romans 8:23.

This idea of preliminary adoption followed by final adoption is simply rewriting scripture to pour Calvinism into it. Calvinism is mistaken doctrine, Romans 8:23.

We become spiritual children of God when we are born anew, and arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works. Our adoption comes later, Romans 8:23.

Do not deny scripture, Romans 8:23 is crystal.

 

[percho]

Well I thought I would take a shot at answering;

Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

Let's see. We were born of our parents flesh and blood. And we are told;

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50 And; Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3 And; Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 And; Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7 Because; That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

And Jesus; Being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9 When; And *he* is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that *he* might have the first place in all things: Col.1:18 Darby. And then we also; for *our* commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself. Phil. 3:20,21 Darby. Called the adoption by Paul; And not only that, but even *we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23 Darby. Then; Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be firstborn (from the dead) among many brethren. Romans 8:28 Darby.

Yes we need to experience being born again but up until now only Jesus has experienced it.

And Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That *ye* who have followed me, in the regeneration; When the Son of man shall sit down upon his throne of glory, *ye* also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28 Darby/Percho.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, you cannot seem to be able to read. Sons might receive indicated they were sons, but had not been adopted. You need to read Romans 8:23 until you figure out we are eagerly awaiting our adoption in the future. Calvinisms claim that adoption equals salvation is simply false. Romans 8:23.

This idea of preliminary adoption followed by final adoption is simply rewriting scripture to pour Calvinism into it. Calvinism is mistaken doctrine, Romans 8:23.

We become spiritual children of God when we are born anew, and arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works. Our adoption comes later, Romans 8:23.

Do not deny scripture, Romans 8:23 is crystal.

we cannot becoem the children of God without being also adopted into Family of God!

 

[Van]

we cannot become the children of God without being also adopted into Family of God!

Again, you provide no scripture to support your fiction. We cannot become adopted unless we have been born anew as spiritual children of God. Romans 8:23.

Yeshua1 denies Romans 8:23 teaches we have not yet been adopted. Read it and judge for yourselves.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, you provide no scripture to support your fiction. We cannot become adopted unless we have been born anew as spiritual children of God. Romans 8:23.

Yeshua1 denies Romans 8:23 teaches we have not yet been adopted. Read it and judge for yourselves.

strange, as paul uses Romam adoption procedures to explain that right NOW we have officially adopted by the Father, and sealed by the Spriit into the beloved!

 

[Van]

strange, as paul uses Romam adoption procedures to explain that right NOW we have officially adopted by the Father, and sealed by the Spriit into the beloved!

The same mistaken assertion, devoid of any supporting scripture, is oft repeated by Calvinist acolytes.

Paul wrote Romans 8:23 and Paul's inspired scripture says we have not yet been adopted. You see how easy it is to demonstrate a point actually taught in scripture.

Now, where is that verse where Paul says we have been adopted? Tick tock, tick tock.

 

[Van]

As with all things Calvinistic, the scriptural sequence is rewritten so that we are adopted, which turns us into sons, then we are saved. However, as usual, scripture teaches the exact opposite, first we are born anew, and then we eagerly await our adoption as sons. Romans 8:23.

BTW, as background, for those who have not actually studied adoption, the word is used only by Paul in scripture and so various theologians have invented various meanings for the word to conform to their doctrine. In our world a child automatically turns into an adult at age 18, except for a few items like drinking. In the Roman world, a child had the status of a slave of his natural father until a legal ceremony was conducted in the child's teen years, declaring the child as a son. This "adoption" ceremony was eagerly looked forward to by the child, to receive the full benefits of adulthood. Thus adoption is something that occurs to a natural born son, the exact opposite of many theological assertions by Calvinists.

Turning now to Paul we who have been born anew, i.e. arisen in Christ a new creation, are in the present a spiritual child of God, but we look forward to our physical resurrection, our adoption, where we will enjoy the full benefits of being a member of God's family.

NKJV Greek English Interlinear New Testament:

"Adoption: Greek: huiothesia. Noun, a compound noun from 'huio', a son and 'thesia' a placing, thus meaning adoption. The word was a legal technical term for a father's declaration that his natural born child was officially a son or daughter, with all the rights and privileges that this included."

 

[Yeshua1]

As with all things Calvinistic, the scriptural sequence is rewritten so that we are adopted, which turns us into sons, then we are saved. However, as usual, scripture teaches the exact opposite, first we are born anew, and then we eagerly await our adoption as sons. Romans 8:23.

BTW, as background, for those who have not actually studied adoption, the word is used only by Paul in scripture and so various theologians have invented various meanings for the word to conform to their doctrine. In our world a child automatically turns into an adult at age 18, except for a few items like drinking. In the Roman world, a child had the status of a slave of his natural father until a legal ceremony was conducted in the child's teen years, declaring the child as a son. This "adoption" ceremony was eagerly looked forward to by the child, to receive the full benefits of adulthood. Thus adoption is something that occurs to a natural born son, the exact opposite of many theological assertions by Calvinists.

Turning now to Paul we who have been born anew, i.e. arisen in Christ a new creation, are in the present a spiritual child of God, but we look forward to our physical resurrection, our adoption, where we will enjoy the full benefits of being a member of God's family.

starnge that the Interlinear tells us that paul was speaking of we as natural born sinners were adopted by God as his children, and the sealing of/by the Holy spirit confirms that fact, as NOW we cry out "Abba Father!"

 

[Van]

Abba Father is another term Calvinist acolytes have misunderstood, as they have adoption.

Note the Calvinist turns "natural born child" into "natural born sinner." All they do is rewrite to reverse meaning.

Did Jesus use the term "Abba Father" when praying and preparing for the cross? Would it be natural for those indwelt with the Spirit of Christ to pray "Abba Father?" So, yes, now as spiritual children of God, sealed with the Spirit of Adoption as a pledge to our adoption, would pray "Abba Father." But have we been changed in the twinkling of an eye, have we been raised in glorified bodies, or are we eagerly awaiting our adoption, our resurrection in our glorified bodies?

Just read scripture folks, pay no attention to the chronic rewriters, who never met a scripture like Romans 8:23 they could not ignore and nullify.

"Adoption: Greek: huiothesia. Noun, a compound noun from 'huio', a son and 'thesia' a placing, thus meaning adoption. The word was a legal technical term for a father's declaration that his natural born child was officially a son or daughter, with all the rights and privileges that this included."

 

[Yeshua1]

Abba Father is another term Calvinist acolytes have misunderstood, as they have adoption.

Note the Calvinist turns "natural born child" into "natural born sinner." All they do is rewrite to reverse meaning.

Did Jesus use the term "Abba Father" when praying and preparing for the cross? Would it be natural for those indwelt with the Spirit of Christ to pray "Abba Father?" So, yes, now as spiritual children of God, sealed with the Spirit of Adoption as a pledge to our adoption, would pray "Abba Father." But have we been changed in the twinkling of an eye, have we been raised in glorified bodies, or are we eagerly awaiting our adoption, our resurrection in our glorified bodies?

Just read scripture folks, pay no attention to the chronic rewriters, who never met a scripture like Romans 8:23 they could not ignore and nullify.

The dealing of/from teh Spriit is an earnest pledge to us being glorifed in final state of our salvation process, NOT to becoming adopted at some future time!

 

[percho]

The dealing of/from teh Spriit is an earnest pledge to us being glorifed in final state of our salvation process, NOT to becoming adopted at some future time!

And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Romans 8:23 YLT

in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13,14 YLT

Those verses have a lot say about the same thing.

Just what is the acquired possession which requires redemption at a specific moment called adoption that is sonship and or son placing or as W&H translates, to-a-son-placing-unto?

Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, 1 Cor 6:19 YLT
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Romans 8:11 YLT

When? the redemption of the acquired possession,?

BY the eternal word of God is it not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that conceives the body as a son of God awaiting being born again at the redemption of the acquired possession?

Is it not the body of flesh, born of woman that must be born again, by the Spirit, indwelling us, in order to be inheritors?

 

[Van]

The dealing of/from teh Spriit is an earnest pledge to us being glorifed in final state of our salvation process, NOT to becoming adopted at some future time!

Roman 8:23 says we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but that does not alter the plain truth. Calvinism simply rewrites scripture after scripture to reverse what it says. Red flags, folks, red flags.