Does God have a free will?

[Reformed1689]

Obviously not because Calvinist restrict Him on who He can save.

Strawman. Again, you clearly demonstrate you have no idea what the Doctrines of Grace actually are.

 

[Dave G]

Does God have a free will? Does he will his attributes? Or do his attributes determine his will?

I believe God does not have a free will. Because He is love. And He is perfect. And any change in his will determined by love and righteousness would be to imperfection.

Dave,
Do you think it's wise to pursue this line of thought?

God is not man, neither are His ways our ways.
Those ways are far above ours, and what He reveals to us is as far as we should go ( 1 Corinthians 1:6 ), as I see it.

To try and break the Lord down into what appears to amount to a line of thought, isn't wise, from my perspective.
Let us remember Job chapters 38-41.

 

[Dave G]

Obviously not because Calvinist restrict Him on who He can save.

God's word does that.

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

That is what is written, MB.
You do believe the words of God, do you not?

You know He can't save all the lost, Just the imaginary elect. Of course the Bible never says such but because they insist on it He must not have freewill. Who would of thought that a puny Calvinist had such athority.

" Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:20-24 ).

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,
Do you think it's wise to pursue this line of thought?

God is not man, neither are His ways our ways.
Those ways are far above ours, and what He reveals to us is as far as we should go ( 1 Corinthians 1:6 ), as I see it.

To try and break the Lord down into what appears to amount to a line of thought, isn't wise, from my perspective.
Let us remember Job chapters 38-41.

Thanks Dave. I see it more like God is perfect including his decree. Any change would be to imperfection. Omniscience depends of this and cannot exist if any of his decree is contingent on what some might or might not do.

 

[HankD]

i always thought it on the edge of futility trying to make sense out of our perception of time and GOD's

Ecclesiastes 8:17 then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.

 

[HankD]

for starters, our perception of time has a very small view of it - depending solely upon the relationship of the earth, the sun, moon and stars whereas God "preceded" these eternally.

 

[Reynolds]

Does God have a free will? Does he will his attributes? Or do his attributes determine his will?

I believe God does not have a free will. Because He is love. And He is perfect. And any change in his will determined by love and righteousness would be to imperfection.

God the Father is not a man and is not limited by our understanding.

 

[Reynolds]

Can God send all in heaven to hell?

This is the same old argument "Can God make a rock so heavy He cant pick it up?".

 

[1689Dave]

God the Father is not a man and is not limited by our understanding.

But he does not change.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:17 (KJV 1900)

“For I am the LORD, I change not; Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[Reynolds]

But he does not change.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:17 (KJV 1900)

“For I am the LORD, I change not; Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (KJV 1900)

Your point?

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

This is the same old argument "Can God make a rock so heavy He cant pick it up?".

Exactly. This whole post trying to make sense out of God, and there is no way we as mortal human beings ever can. We simply were not made to, our brains are way too tiny for that. But this is an excellent point.

Is God limited by our human understanding?

Of course not. He created us, not the other way around. And who are we to question that which has not been revealed to us through scripture?

Does the Almighty God have free will? This all depends on our definition of free will. Can He willingly choose what to do with His creation? Certainly! However, people are seeming to equate free will with the ability to sin. Can a Being whose Word always comes true lie? No, that is not His nature.

However, there are times in the Bible where the Lord has changed His mind on what to do with a person/people. Off the back of my hand, I recall the entire land of Nineveh, who the Lord decided He was going to destroy. Keep in mind, the Lord cannot lie and therefore was not bluffing. However, after Jonah warned the Ninevites, they entire nation repented and cried out to the Lord for mercy. And the Lord decided to spare the people instead of destroying them.

 

[Reformed]

However, there are times in the Bible where the Lord has changed His mind on what to do with a person/people.

But those references to God changing His mind is for our understanding. God is often presented using anthropomorphic language. As linear creatures, we cannot see all ends. God does. We have to trust in that.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

But those references to God changing His mind is for our understanding. God is often presented using anthropomorphic language. As linear creatures, we cannot see all ends. God does. We have to trust in that.

I don't see where in the Bible it says to take God's decision with Nineveh figuratively. If it says that He changed His mind, then He changed His mind. If that was meant to be a figure of speech, then the Bible would've said so, as it does in regards to the parables.

I agree that we as humans cannot see what God sees, and we must have faith in His decisions. But I cannot say that the Bible doesn't mean what it says unless it specifically tells us to. Otherwise I risk making the Bible say things that it doesn't.

 

[Reformed]

If it says that He changed His mind, then He changed His mind.

There is a lot more discussion here than can be had in this thread. This topic is worth its own thread. However, if we embrace a literal hermeneutic without considering literary types (like anthropomorphisms), we wind up with problems with passages such as John 10:9. Everyone with a lick of common sense knows that Jesus is not a door but if we go with the logic of "If the Bible says "X", yet make exceptions for passages we think are self-evident as to their meaning, we are being inconsistent with how we handle scripture. Passages such as Isaiah 46:9-10 teach that God knows the end from the beginning. Jesus calls Himself the "Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 1:8) and "the beginning and the end" (Revelation 22:13). If we consider the nature of God, we cannot conclude that God's mind can be changed. If it can be changed then it calls into question His omniscience. Anyway, that is my take on the matter.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

Actually, you just brought up a good point in relation to this scripture. In terms of Isiaiah 46:9-10.

My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Does the Lord have free will? Well, according to this, He will do what He wants. And as Lord of all, He is worthy to do so.

I am not sure how the Lord changing His decision on judgement on a person/people challenges His omniscience. Can He not know all possible outcomes and futures, and decide to do or not do with His creation?

 

[Reformed]

Does the Lord have free will? Well, according to this, He will do what He wants. And as Lord of all, He is worthy to do so.

God does do whatever He wills and everything that He wills is accomplished. The only thing God cannot do is act contrary to His nature.

Can He not know all possible outcomes and futures, and decide to do or not do with His creation?

This is probably where our theological differences show themselves. God does not consider all possible outcomes and futures. I believe such a concept is foreign to scripture. I like how the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith explained God's will in Chapter 3.1:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

[utilyan]

But those references to God changing His mind is for our understanding. God is often presented using anthropomorphic language. As linear creatures, we cannot see all ends. God does. We have to trust in that.

Including the presumed "unconditional hatred" of others.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

Including the presumed "unconditional hatred" of others.

Care to elaborate? I've never heard of that concept.

 

[utilyan]

Dave,
Do you think it's wise to pursue this line of thought?

God is not man, neither are His ways our ways.
Those ways are far above ours, and what He reveals to us is as far as we should go ( 1 Corinthians 1:6 ), as I see it.

To try and break the Lord down into what appears to amount to a line of thought, isn't wise, from my perspective.
Let us remember Job chapters 38-41.

Which its why its wise to pursue this line rather than expect God to be just another pagan god megalomaniac or like us in attitude.

Sorry Calvinism cannot possibly survive if he clings to this idea that God is Love and never changes.

Who does Jesus Christ hate if he teaches Love your enemies?

 

[utilyan]

Care to elaborate? I've never heard of that concept.

Its the flips side of the idea of unconditional election. He chooses before creation who he loves ergo he is also choosing who he hates. All without condition.

Usually a person will quote 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" and Take it to mean God actually hates people.