Does God have a free will?

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

Its the flips side of the idea of unconditional election. He chooses before creation who he loves ergo he is also choosing who he hates. All without condition.

Usually a person will quote 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" and Take it to mean God actually hates people.

Ah, I see. That doesn't seem to make much sense. That would be like a father hating his children before they were even born, which the Bible calls being without natural affection.

Besides, if whether or not we go to Heaven or Hell was decided before we existed, what would be the point of preaching the gospel? What would be the consequences of NOT preaching the gospel, other than it would keep people from hearing the Word and getting saved? If that was all decided beforehand, then it wouldn't matter, right?

 

[utilyan]

Ah, I see. That doesn't seem to make much sense. That would be like a father hating his children before they were even born, which the Bible calls being without natural affection.

Besides, if whether or not we go to Heaven or Hell was decided before we existed, what would be the point of preaching the gospel? What would be the consequences of NOT preaching the gospel, other than it would keep people from hearing the Word and getting saved? If that was all decided beforehand, then it wouldn't matter, right?

Its a different gospel. Different character for God.

The entire gospel would be taught with "If God likes you then you will be saved and If God hates you then you will be damned."

Which is no different than any other pagan god's claim. Painting a Jesus who hates people and one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness.

 

[Yeshua1]

Does God have a free will? Does he will his attributes? Or do his attributes determine his will?

I believe God does not have a free will. Because He is love. And He is perfect. And any change in his will determined by love and righteousness would be to imperfection.

I would say that he alone has real free will, as there is nothing either internally within Himself or external force that causes Him to have to change Hios views!

 

[1689Dave]

I would say that he alone has real free will, as there is nothing either internally within Himself or external force that causes Him to have to change Hios views!

God's nature determines his will. It is bound to this.

 

[Revmitchell]

Me thinks someone is obsessed with the topic of free will

 

[Calminian]

Does God have a free will? Does he will his attributes? Or do his attributes determine his will?

I believe God does not have a free will. Because He is love. And He is perfect. And any change in his will determined by love and righteousness would be to imperfection.

Are you saying God has no choice in anything? Was he obligated to save you? Or did he have a choice?

I'll be honest with you, if you believe God had no true option to save you, you've destroyed grace (at least in my thinking).

 

[Benjamin]

From my study notes, kind of rambling on this subject, about 5 years ago. Food for thought:


LFW and Aseity

One can simply point out that God certainly has libertarian freedom in some ways, while He may not have it all ways (like with regards to lying or sinning, since He cannot deny Himself). God was free to create or not create. Otherwise, we would have to view creation as something that God could not avoid doing. That would mean that God had to create, which seems to threaten His aseity. Likewise, if Calvinism is true, this would also mean that God had to elect the ones he elected and reprobate the one's he reprobated. This again would seem to threaten God's aseity. It would also strike against the common Calvinist claim in trying to avoid focusing on reprobation by saying, "God didn't have to elect anybody, so was entirely gracious in electing only some." But if God does not have libertarian free will with regards to election, then he did have to elect some. He was necessitated in some way to do so, couldn't have done otherwise.


If God can only do good (which I believe), then this would seem to create problems for the Calvinists with regards to God's eternal decree, i.e., God causes sin by way of His decree. All that God does is good. Therefore, causing sin is good. Is the Calvinist ready to accept this? Probably not. They will make a distinction between what is good for God and what is good for man. But that distinction could also account for why God can be good and not free to do evil, while we cannot be morally free and not at least "able" to do evil.

So one way to look at it is to see that since God is by nature good, his moral goodness is not tied up in His ability to do evil. Our moral accountability, however, might indeed be contingent on the ability to obey or disobey based on the fact that we are contingent beings who are accountable to God. It may be that as contingent beings, the only way for us to attain moral goodness is through the ability to either obey or disobey God, who is in very nature good. This seems to plainly be the case in Scripture.

It may be that God's moral character was freely chosen by God from eternity. It was an eternal yet free choice on God's part to define His character as He has defined it, which is "good" and is therefore where all standards of goodness find their meaning. This does not mean that there was ever a time that God was not good, and it does not imply that there was ever a moment where a choice was made regarding God's moral character, only that God's moral character is ultimately subordinate to God's will. His choice of moral goodness is as eternal as He is, and is likewise fixed from eternity. Some Arminians are comfortable with this approach and others are not. For those who are not, I think the above is the best alternative (that I can think of anyway).

 

[Scott Downey]

From my study notes, kind of rambling on this subject, about 5 years ago. Food for thought:


LFW and Aseity

One can simply point out that God certainly has libertarian freedom in some ways, while He may not have it all ways (like with regards to lying or sinning, since He cannot deny Himself). God was free to create or not create. Otherwise, we would have to view creation as something that God could not avoid doing. That would mean that God had to create, which seems to threaten His aseity. Likewise, if Calvinism is true, this would also mean that God had to elect the ones he elected and reprobate the one's he reprobated. This again would seem to threaten God's aseity. It would also strike against the common Calvinist claim in trying to avoid focusing on reprobation by saying, "God didn't have to elect anybody, so was entirely gracious in electing only some." But if God does not have libertarian free will with regards to election, then he did have to elect some. He was necessitated in some way to do so, couldn't have done otherwise.


If God can only do good (which I believe), then this would seem to create problems for the Calvinists with regards to God's eternal decree, i.e., God causes sin by way of His decree. All that God does is good. Therefore, causing sin is good. Is the Calvinist ready to accept this? Probably not. They will make a distinction between what is good for God and what is good for man. But that distinction could also account for why God can be good and not free to do evil, while we cannot be morally free and not at least "able" to do evil.

So one way to look at it is to see that since God is by nature good, his moral goodness is not tied up in His ability to do evil. Our moral accountability, however, might indeed be contingent on the ability to obey or disobey based on the fact that we are contingent beings who are accountable to God. It may be that as contingent beings, the only way for us to attain moral goodness is through the ability to either obey or disobey God, who is in very nature good. This seems to plainly be the case in Scripture.

It may be that God's moral character was freely chosen by God from eternity. It was an eternal yet free choice on God's part to define His character as He has defined it, which is "good" and is therefore where all standards of goodness find their meaning. This does not mean that there was ever a time that God was not good, and it does not imply that there was ever a moment where a choice was made regarding God's moral character, only that God's moral character is ultimately subordinate to God's will. His choice of moral goodness is as eternal as He is, and is likewise fixed from eternity. Some Arminians are comfortable with this approach and others are not. For those who are not, I think the above is the best alternative (that I can think of anyway).

About God doing evil, God uses the evil men do for His good purposes.
God caused Joseph to be set upon by his brothers, but preserved Joseph's life to fulfill His plan for Israel.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

We might think it evil and it feels evil, but this is the judgement and decision of God to bring about what He has determined to occur.
Amos 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity (evil days) in a city, will not the Lord have done it?

 

[Walpole]

Since God is Logos, He can do all things and is free to do all things logically possible (i.e. those things which are not contradictory). To sin, by definition, is to fail to act perfectly. Hence if God sinned, He would fail to act perfectly, as He cannot do that which doing seeks to avoid, specifically failure. Put in simpler terms, sinning, is by definition “falling short” or “missing the mark”, and would therefore mean God was limited in His power to do as He should. Thus a God who sins is one who contradicts His own perfection and is therefore not God at all.

 

[Benjamin]

About God doing evil, God uses the evil men do for His good purposes.
God caused Joseph to be set upon by his brothers, but preserved Joseph's life to fulfill His plan for Israel.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

We might think it evil and it feels evil, but this is the judgement and decision of God to bring about what He has determined to occur.
Amos 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity (evil days) in a city, will not the Lord have done it?

The problem is you attempt to shift responsibility for evil as it suits your Calvinistic theology of Determination. "God uses the evil men do..." and "...God to bring about what He has determined to occur.". Attributing evil to God cannot be both true and not true, by any logically true means. IMO, evil cannot be attributed to God without being heresy leading to Theological Fatalism.

 

[MB]

The elect are a people for God's own. Only Jews hold this title of elect. He did not elect the Whole world or even part of the Gentiles. If He had it really would have been a change of mind. So Calvinism is suggesting change of God's mind about the Gentiles because they seek to be elect just like the Jews We have been grafted into the root but we are still Gentiles because our branch is Gentile and will always produce Gentiles. Jew's on the other hand pass there election on to there children. Gentiles pass on Gentiles. Not elect
MB

 

[Scott Downey]

The problem is you attempt to shift responsibility for evil as it suits your Calvinistic theology of Determination. "God uses the evil men do..." and "...God to bring about what He has determined to occur.". Attributing evil to God cannot be both true and not true, by any logically true means. IMO, evil cannot be attributed to God without being heresy leading to Theological Fatalism.

Like this also then. Your opinion is corrupt.

Acts 4
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

 

[Benjamin]

Your opinion is corrupt.

No, evil cannot come from an Only Good God, your opinion is corrupt.

Acts 4
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

 

[Dave G]

No, evil cannot come from an Only Good God, your opinion is corrupt.

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." ( Job 2:10 ).

"Evil" here is "calamity", or bad things.
God is good...but He also allows bad things to come to those, especially, who deserve it:


" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]." ( Isaiah 45:7 ).

" Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" ( Lamentations 3:38 ).

"And it shall come to pass, [that] like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD." ( Jeremiah 31:28 ).

" For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them." ( Jeremiah 33:42 ).



Consider the words of God, Benjamin.
Are you willing to believe whatever He says?

Even if it doesn't fit your understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )?

 

[Dave G]

Acts 4
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

" For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." ( Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28 )

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

" Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" ( Acts of the Apostles 2:23 ).

God's will works in conjunction with man's will.
He determines things, and men do them.

He allows men to do things, being an infinite number of "moves" ahead of us...
He changes the times and seasons, sets up one king and takes another down ( Daniel 2:21 ).
He also puts things in men's hearts to do them ( Psalms 37:23, Proverbs 16:1, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 19:21, Proverbs 20:24, Jeremiah 10:23, Revelation 17:12 )...


Yet, we are to blame for every sin, because God does not tempt men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).
He does not put it into our hearts to do that.
We do it just fine all by ourselves.

To much to handle?
I hope not.
His Son is our Saviour, if we have believed on Him.

This is the God of all Creation, Benjamin...
Nothing like any "god" we have invented to take His place.

Someone worthy of our respect and worship.

 

[Benjamin]

He determines things, and men do them.

Says the Determinist.

Calvinist Logic of begging the question

Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."

Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"

Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."

Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

 

[Particular]

Says the Determinist.

Calvinist Logic of begging the question

Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."

Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"

Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."

Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

God said "yes" to the things that Jeffrey Dahmer did. Romans 1 makes this clear.

Romans 1:24,26,28-31 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

 

[utilyan]

God said "yes" to the things that Jeffrey Dahmer did. Romans 1 makes this clear.

Romans 1:24,26,28-31 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

"God said "yes" to the things that Jeffrey Dahmer did."

So did SATAN. Same guy for some folks huh?

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

1 Corinthians 14

33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

 

[Walpole]

God said "yes" to the things that Jeffrey Dahmer did. Romans 1 makes this clear.

Your God is our devil.

 

[Particular]

"God said "yes" to the things that Jeffrey Dahmer did."

So did SATAN. Same guy for some folks huh?

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

1 Corinthians 14

33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

You seem to struggle with the ordination of God.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Habakkuk 1:6 For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.

No one is saying that God tempts people, but God certainly says yes to Satan tempting others (Adam and Jesus), bringing evil (Job) and even entering into (Judas).

You seem to think that makes God evil and vile because he ordains that evil can exist and work.