Does God Learn?

[Van]

I find this to be an interesting discussion....While, I am decidedly of the opinion that God never "learns" anything, and therefore take the position that his Omniscience is indeed exhaustive...I do not find the position of those who disagree to be mere "heresy" etc...Consider: Christ himself indeed "emptied" himself of some of his Divine attributes (at least in certain circumstances, and only at will). This is not to say that he didn't Posses them....nor is it to say that he COULD not have taken them back up at any point...He did indeed raise himself by his own power no? That being said...he did not in fact, "know" when his return would be....only the Father knew that.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This tells me, (as do other Scriptures) that God is at least capable of placing certain limits upon himself in certain circumstances and only at will.
It would be nice if those who maintain exhaustive Omniscience as I do, would at least entertain some of the ideas presented by our noble opposition and learn from them.

I suppose that the better way to view it is this...it is not as though suggesting that God can "learn" should necessarilly be relegated to some imputation upon his Omnipotence...but rather, at least, the possibility that he is indeed capable of imposing his own limits at will. I do not specifically argue that he does, but that it is at least not impossible. Similarly...there are those who feel that to exhaustivley foreknow all outcomes of creaturely volition or "choices" is to render them "determined" or not, in fact, "real" choices...I believe a lot of O.T's think this way...I patently disagree with them about that....inasmuch as I maintain that all choices can be known and also not determined. I do not think that makes them "heretics" though.

While we hold differing views, this post is spot on. That God knows what He has chosen to know, rather than everything imaginable is fully consistent with all scripture. The name calling folks deny the obvious.

It is important to believe what scripture actually says, rather than the doctrines of men which do not fit with all scripture, in order to say we believe in the God of the Bible, rather than the god of man's invention.

 

[jbh28]

I find this to be an interesting discussion....While, I am decidedly of the opinion that God never "learns" anything, and therefore take the position that his Omniscience is indeed exhaustive...I do not find the position of those who disagree to be mere "heresy" etc...Consider: Christ himself indeed "emptied" himself of some of his Divine attributes (at least in certain circumstances, and only at will). This is not to say that he didn't Posses them....nor is it to say that he COULD not have taken them back up at any point...He did indeed raise himself by his own power no? That being said...he did not in fact, "know" when his return would be....only the Father knew that.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This tells me, (as do other Scriptures) that God is at least capable of placing certain limits upon himself in certain circumstances and only at will.
It would be nice if those who maintain exhaustive Omniscience as I do, would at least entertain some of the ideas presented by our noble opposition and learn from them.

I suppose that the better way to view it is this...it is not as though suggesting that God can "learn" should necessarily be relegated to some imputation upon his Omnipotence...but rather, at least, the possibility that he is indeed capable of imposing his own limits at will. I do not specifically argue that he does, but that it is at least not impossible. Similarly...there are those who feel that to exhaustivley foreknow all outcomes of creaturely volition or "choices" is to render them "determined" or not, in fact, "real" choices...I believe a lot of O.T's think this way...I patently disagree with them about that....inasmuch as I maintain that all choices can be known and also not determined. I do not think that makes them "heretics" though.

Even if the Bible taught that God limited his knowledge(it doesn't) it wouldn't be God not knowing something and learning something as some here incorrectly teach. It would be more of God not using the knowledge he has. The Bible clearly teaches that God knows everything. (knowing everything he has chosen to know is laughable and of course unbiblical. How can you choose not to know something...you would know it to choose not to know it....duh!). It also flies in the face that God is eternal. If God knows something now, he has always know it because he is eternal. If God learns something, his knowledge changes. God doesn't change.

some of the verses that teach that God has ALL knowledge

I John 3:20, John 21:17, Psalm 147:4,5, Acts 15:18, Isaiah 46:10, Psalm 139:4, 1 Kings 8:39...

Some of the verses that teach that God doesn't know something or learned something he didn't' know.....
0

The biggest issue is not the questions about Jesus and limiting knowledge. The issue is that the Bible teaches that God knows everything and some want to make God into something less than he is. It is denying many passages that teach that God knows everything and making unbiblical assumptions on other passages to say that there are things God doesn't know. Not knowing everything is not the God of the Bible.

 

[webdog]

Even if the Bible taught that God limited his knowledge(it doesn't) it wouldn't be God not knowing something and learning something as some here incorrectly teach.

...then explain how Christ, being fully God didn't (doesn't) know the time of His return?

 

[Amy.G]

...then explain how Christ, being fully God didn't (doesn't) know the time of His return?

His knowledge was limited only during the time that He took on human flesh. He has now returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began. He was only limited in His humanity and that for only 3 years during His earthly ministry.

 

[Amy.G]

That God knows what He has chosen to know, rather than everything imaginable is fully consistent with all scripture.

This has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read on this board.

How can you choose to NOT know something without already knowing it in the first place?

 

[webdog]

His knowledge was limited only during the time that He took on human flesh. He has now returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began. He was only limited in His humanity and that for only 3 years during His earthly ministry.

...and back to splitting Christ's humanity from His deity again :BangHead:

 

[jbh28]

...then explain how Christ, being fully God didn't (doesn't) know the time of His return?

The Father knows = God knows. The discussion is over does God learn.

 

[jbh28]

...and back to splitting Christ's humanity from His deity again :BangHead:

Jesus is one person with two different natures (divine and human). There are some things that are hard to understand. God is eternal and cannot die....Jesus died. God knows everything....Only the Father knows the time of the return.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

JBH...I am truly extatic whenever you weigh in....and I hate this....but...even though I (who basically agrees with you), this answer is not sufficient. I am a devotee of exhaustive foreknowledge myself...but....I feel compelled to do the dissenters job for them:

Even if the Bible taught that God limited his knowledge(it doesn't) it wouldn't be God not knowing something and learning something as some here incorrectly teach.

Jesus was, in fact, God, and there were things he did not know. I cannot explain it.

It would be more of God not using the knowledge he has

.

Yes, or, rather, choosing to not be cognizant of the "content" of it...either one would suffice.

The Bible clearly teaches that God knows everything.

I agree

(knowing everything he has chosen to know is laughable and of course unbiblical. How can you choose not to know something...you would know it to choose not to know it....duh!).

"unbiblical" is the charge I am yet unsure of...It does, in fact, appear to me, that (at least in his human form) Jesus, who was, in fact FULLY GOD, was able to not "know" something...namely...the "time and the hour"...If Jesus is capable of this...then decidedly, God, I would assume is.
Note: It is obviously unintelligible to say that the actual "content" of a certain "knowledge" is not able to be "limited" but as you say:

you would know it to choose not to know it....duh!

We are not speaking of the "content" of the knowledge itself...only the "fact" or reality of it, which, I would assume God is capable (if he chose) to be logically posterior to...Does this make sense?

It also flies in the face that God is eternal. If God knows something now, he has always know it because he is eternal.

I do not think it does... I think they are separate issues.

If God learns something, his knowledge changes.

God doesn't change.

Yes, as you say:

If God learns something, his knowledge changes.

But then you go on to say:

God doesn't change.

AGREED!!! But God's "Immutability" (as it were) might be correctly understood as a separate issue from his "Omniscience" or his "Omnipotence" or anything else...I have never thought that, although God is all of these...that they must always be understood to be inextricably interrelated...In other words...Yes, God's "Immutability" is a statement about God's "changelessness" with respect to his essential nature...He is who he is... He IS however as he has revealed himself to BE... to us, and that "essential nature" does not change...but, I think Immutability is not a sufficient argument against the possibility of his "changing" (as it were) with respect only to his decision to become "cognitive" of certain things in time...Does this make sense?

some of the verses that teach that God has ALL knowledge

I John 3:20, John 21:17, Psalm 147:4,5, Acts 15:18, Isaiah 46:10, Psalm 139:4, 1 Kings 8:39...

I tend to agree....I am only functioning as a "Devil's advocate". I tend to hold to exhaustive foreknowledge as you do.

Some of the verses that teach that God doesn't know something or learned something he didn't' know.....
0

I will allow the adherents of the doctrine to adress this.

The biggest issue is not the questions about Jesus and limiting knowledge.

Welllll.....!!!! At least vis-a-vis my initial post... it is possibly an explanation, which is not un-Scriptural (at least on it's face) and is therefore to be refuted...and might well be so. But, it must be refuted as a possibility prior to our abandonment of the idea wholesale yes??

The issue is that the Bible teaches that God knows everything

I tend to agree.

and some want to make God into something less than he is.

That...I actually deny...I do not specifically feel that (although I disagree) any argument to the contrary MUST make God "lesser" than he is...I have heard (but not embraced) arguments which assume all of God's attributes coincident with his essential nature, which teach otherwise.

It is denying many passages that teach that God knows everything and making unbiblical assumptions on other passages to say that there are things God doesn't know. Not knowing everything is not the God of the Bible.

Well.....I tend to agree, and I have defended a position I don't even hold to enough. I always appreciate your interjection JBH!! Thank you for your reasoned and helpfull responses!! I now leave it to the dissenters to defend their own position...I ain't gonna do their homework for them....I just tired of the "heretic" charges...that's all...I like for the free exchange and debate of ideas to be "fair". You have treated it fairly. Let the "God learns stuff" people defend themselves hereafterward!!:thumbs:

May I add (personally) that I love it when you exchange ideas here!!! It is always fruitful. :thumbs::saint:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

How can you choose to NOT know something without already knowing it in the first place?

Possible answer to the question:

Easily...If you can differentiate between the "content" of a belief and the knowledge that a "fact" merely exists...how stupid do you think God is???? Those are two separate truths:
1.) There is a "truth-value" to what will occur
and
2.) What the ontological reality of what that occurance is...

It isn't that complicated really.

 

[Amy.G]

Possible answer to rhetorical question:

Easily...If you can differentiate between the "content" of a belief and the knowledge that a "fact" merely exists...how stupid do you think God is???? Those are two separate truths:
1.) There is a "truth-value" to what will occur
and
2.) What the ontological reality of what that occurance is...

It isn't that complicated really.

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Amy.G]

...and back to splitting Christ's humanity from His deity again :BangHead:

I'm not splitting anything, unless you consider rightly dividing the word of God to be "splitting". :smilewinkgrin:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I have no idea what you just said.

......I know

 

[Amy.G]

......I know

Yes. You're sooooo much smarter than me! :laugh:

 

[webdog]

The Father knows = God knows. The discussion is over does God learn.

Jesus is God. Jesus didn't know. Apparently Jesus had to *gasp* learn when His return would be

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yes. You're sooooo much smarter than me! :laugh:

......Yes....

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I'm not splitting anything, unless you consider rightly dividing the word of God to be "splitting". :smilewinkgrin:

I don't know how powerful this argument is meant to be...but if it is designed to be something of a play on words...if the intention is to out-smart him by an equivocation between the word "divide" and "split" which only has signifigance to the Western mind if at all...Allow me to Rob you blind of this ill-advised argument completely....

One who is an amateur sycophant of ancient History might note that....in ancient Egypt (for instance) in courts of law...all "arguments" or contentions were required by law to be submitted in writing, and the literal definition of the word: "Argue" was literally to "Split-hairs"....Just love that History...sheds light on stuff.....(see the inestimable Historian Will Durant for this) robs people of avoiding substance by placing random synonyms for words while avoiding defining them....Please express your real intent without playing stupid word-games....stop lying. Stop trying to "out-wit" or decieve...let your "yay" be "yay" and your "nay" be "nay".

 

[Zaac]

This has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read on this board.

How can you choose to NOT know something without already knowing it in the first place?

:applause: And where there is confusion, the devil is at work.

This ought to clarify for you, Amy, how unBiblical is this whole concept that there is something God doesn't know and has to "learn".

 

[jbh28]

Jesus is God. Jesus didn't know. Apparently Jesus had to *gasp* learn when His return would be

The Father is God and did know. So to say that God didn't know something is error.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

:applause: And where there is confusion, the devil is at work.

Or......possibly sheer stupidity....I am a KJV Onlyist for instance....(and few agree with me on that one) but I could easily and randomly claim this, at will, just as easily as anyone could, no????

This ought to clarify for you, Amy, how unBiblical is this whole concept that there is something God doesn't know and has to "learn".

It does not........I might suggest that you actually pose.....what's the word....."Scripture" ( I think) in order to demonstrate that it is, in fact, "Un-Scriptural" as you are claiming....We await your Scriptures sir. Bald assertion will not work...Please "put-up" or "shut-up"...

Drat....I don't even agree with those of the opposition....I just would rather act or sound like them than I would those who hold the same position as I do....forget it....You "God cannot learn" types have successfully argued me against your Point of View...mainly by your tactic of running your ignorant filthy soup-coolers....I simply cannot abide existence in the same camp as such illiterati as I am presumably encamped with...every time they run their suck, they destroy any concievable argument they MAKE!!!!