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Does God love all?
- Thread starter Pastor_Bob
- Start date
standingfirminChrist
New Member
1 Timothy 4:10 clearly tells us that all is more than just a select group, for it not only says all men, but adds specially those who believe.
This would have to mean unbelievers as well as believers.
I am so glad that Paul recorded it correctly... Christ died for the ungodly
We also read that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Mighty big hurdle to jump in changing this to some of the world.
This would have to mean unbelievers as well as believers.
I am so glad that Paul recorded it correctly... Christ died for the ungodly
We also read that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Mighty big hurdle to jump in changing this to some of the world.
Eliyahu said:Re
22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Is "Whosoever" the predestined Elect only?
First , I'll give some other renderings of that phrase .
NLTse : Let anyone who desires ...
HCSB : Whoever desires ...
TNIV : Let all who wish
NIV : Whoever wishes
Yeah , the invitation is extended to all . However , we learn from other passages of God's Holy Word that the Lord causes certain people to come to Him . They do not come of their own accord .
Rippon said:First , I'll give some other renderings of that phrase .
NLTse : Let anyone who desires ...
HCSB : Whoever desires ...
TNIV : Let all who wish
NIV : Whoever wishes
Yeah , the invitation is extended to all . However , we learn from other passages of God's Holy Word that the Lord causes certain people to come to Him . They do not come of their own accord .
Tonight at church I spoke about the Parable of the Sower and mentioned the fact that even in revealing the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, God chose those to whom he wishes to reveal these mysteries (Matt 11:25-27; 13:11).
I didn't make that up---that's the Bible!
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
TCGreek said:Tonight at church I spoke abou the Parable of the Sower and mentioned the fact that even in revealing the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, God chose those to whom he wishes to reveal these mysteries (Matt 11:25-27; 13:11).
I didn't make that up---that's the Bible!
Sure am glad you are not our Pastor.
Ours revealed to us in today's service the fact that seed only grew when the receiver of the seed allowed it to take root... not that God prevents the seed from taking root. I am so glad that God does not prevent His Word from taking root in the hearts of those who choose to walk in the light.
standingfirminChrist said:1 Timothy 4:10 clearly tells us that all is more than just a select group, for it not only says all men, but adds specially those who believe.
This would have to mean unbelievers as well as believers.
The passage in question as rendered in the NLTse : This is why we work hard and continue to stuggle , for our hope is in the living God , who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers .
I have a note in my old NIV that I had jotted down from John Owen -- the famous Puritan . This is not an exact quote , but a paraphrasing of his thoughts on just an aspect of this verse . He could be wordy you know -- but weighty with each word .
In 1 Timothy 4:10 God the Father is in view as the Preserver . His protecting providence is general toward all and particular towards His Church . This text is similar to 2 Peter 2:1 : But there were also false prophets in Israel , just as there will be false prophets among you . They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them . in this way , they will bring sudden destruction on themselves . ( Also NLTse ) . Here temporal deliverance is being dealt with . The Greek word is despotes -- meaning God the Father , not Christ . There is no connection with redemption in this verse . Kurios is a proper title for Christ . Despotes has to do with His ownership , authority and power . Owen cites other passages with despotes , rather than kurios : Acts 4:24 ; 2 Timothy 2:22 ; Jude 4 and Revelation 6:10 .
Dr. Owen also cites Deuteronomy 32:6 for the despotes usage : Is this the way you repay the Lord , you foolish and senseless people ? Isn't he your Father who created you ? Has he not made you and established you ? ( NLTse )
standingfirminChrist said:Sure am glad you are not our Pastor.
Rip :I think you don't know what you are talking about . It would be a blessing to sit under the ministry of TCG .
Ours revealed to us in today's service the fact that seed only grew when the receiver of the seed allowed it to take root... not that God prevents the seed from taking root. I am so glad that God does not prevent His Word from taking root in the hearts of those who choose to walk in the light.
Rip: I don't have the time to go into this now . But how can you say ( or even think ) about "allowing God" anything ? Isn't He the Sovereign of all ? He determines , decrees , declares . We don't "allow" or "permit" Him to do anything . He's the Master ! That's why He is called LORD !
standingfirminChrist
New Member
The Queen of England is also said to be Sovreign, and yet, many who live in England do not obey her.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
God gives us free will, no matter how much you want to cite others that deny this wonderful truth.
standingfirminChrist said:Sure am glad you are not our Pastor.
Ours revealed to us in today's service the fact that seed only grew when the receiver of the seed allowed it to take root... not that God prevents the seed from taking root. I am so glad that God does not prevent His Word from taking root in the hearts of those who choose to walk in the light.
I have a solemn charge to be faithful to the text of Scripture (2 Tim 4:1-5).
"1Before God and Christ Jesus, who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom, I solemnly charge you: 2 proclaim the message; persist in it whether convenient or not; rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. 4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But as for you, keep a clear head about everything, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry" (HCSB, emphasis mine)
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
I also have a solemn charge to be faithful to the text of Scripture... which I am.
Does God love all
All means all, but it doesn't mean the all that y'all think it does. :laugh:
Jesus came to his own, the Jews. However, they were rejecting him and as He was about to be lifted up on the cross by those who He came to he pleads with them all the way to the cross. Look ahead to John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
He came to the Jews and as a nation they refused him. But a remant did and they were "saved". They were not merely born of flesh. They were born again, of the spirit.
Jesus says to the Jews "If you kill me by lifting me up on the cross, I will draw all men, not just Jews.
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus had come to the Jews to be their king, but they would not accept Him on His terms.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Nicodemus was a teacher of the Jews but did not understand that being born of flesh (ie. of the physical seed of Abraham) was of no value.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Not just Jews.
Why?
Because God so loved the world...
Don't just write this off, consider it as you read through the book of John (and Matthew for that matter).
See how Romans 9-11 is not about individual, but about nations.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Here is the verse. Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
How are you treating this verse carefully with your statement? First, does the word “if” mean anything? If we take the position that all will hear the gospels message, and this verse proves it, it also proves that such has NOT been the case until such a time as He is lifted up. Certainly one should be able to see clearly the fallacy of such a position.
To me it is obvious that Christ is not speaking of the event of His crucifixion, but rather is speaking concerning the fact that when He is lifted up through the preaching of the Word, He indeed will draw all that hear to Himself, even if all that hear do not respond favorably.
All means all, but it doesn't mean the all that y'all think it does. :laugh:
Jesus came to his own, the Jews. However, they were rejecting him and as He was about to be lifted up on the cross by those who He came to he pleads with them all the way to the cross. Look ahead to John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
He came to the Jews and as a nation they refused him. But a remant did and they were "saved". They were not merely born of flesh. They were born again, of the spirit.
Jesus says to the Jews "If you kill me by lifting me up on the cross, I will draw all men, not just Jews.
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus had come to the Jews to be their king, but they would not accept Him on His terms.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Nicodemus was a teacher of the Jews but did not understand that being born of flesh (ie. of the physical seed of Abraham) was of no value.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Not just Jews.
Why?
Because God so loved the world...
Don't just write this off, consider it as you read through the book of John (and Matthew for that matter).
See how Romans 9-11 is not about individual, but about nations.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
The Bible says that God hates people, so i will take Him at His word...
- Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
- Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
- Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." - Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."
larryjf said:The Bible says that God hates people, so i will take Him at His word...
The idea of God hating sin but not the sinner is crazy. Sin isn't just some object out there somewhere, sin comes from the heart of man. It is the individual man that sins and draws the hatred of God. God doesn't throw sin into the fires of Hell, but the sinner himself.
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Indeed, God hates or less love some people in connection with their behavior as we read Re 2:6, 15 which tells us Jesus hates the teachings of Nicolaitanes. Does God hate them so much as to nullify His calls for the Salvation?
Re 22:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Is this a fake jesture from God to the predestined to the Hell?
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
Is this the appeal from God to the limited Elect only?
Isaiah 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Are only the elect thirsty?
BTW, Nicolaitanes( Nikao= Rule, Laitane=Lay people) are the clergy system which was claimed by Calvin. Jesus hates what Calvin taught !
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The call is a genuine call, but election and predestination are also genuine.
God does desire that all would come to Him for salvation.
At the same time God clearly desires that men would be reprobate and go to Hell, because they do.
This is not to say that God's will is in conflict, rather that God's will is directed towards different objects in different ways. So you have His prescribed will calling all to repent and be saved. You also have His decretive will that elects some and passes over other for reprobation.
His prescribed will has as its object all men in general and is revealed to us in His Scripture.
His decretive will has as its object the individual man and is not revealed to us, but is the secret thing of God.
God does desire that all would come to Him for salvation.
At the same time God clearly desires that men would be reprobate and go to Hell, because they do.
This is not to say that God's will is in conflict, rather that God's will is directed towards different objects in different ways. So you have His prescribed will calling all to repent and be saved. You also have His decretive will that elects some and passes over other for reprobation.
His prescribed will has as its object all men in general and is revealed to us in His Scripture.
His decretive will has as its object the individual man and is not revealed to us, but is the secret thing of God.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Decretive will? If there is such a thing and it is not revealed to us, how in heaven's name can you say His decretive will elects some and passes over others for reprobation?
What utter nonsense!
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He is not a respector of persons picking and choosing who He wants to be elect and who He wants to send to hell.
Your interpretation of Holy Scripture concerning God's love and it's far-reaching call is severely lacking.
What utter nonsense!
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He is not a respector of persons picking and choosing who He wants to be elect and who He wants to send to hell.
Your interpretation of Holy Scripture concerning God's love and it's far-reaching call is severely lacking.
SFIC, regarding the mockers at Pentacost, I asked you if they had the Spirit poured out on them. You said:
And I asked:
You did not answer me. How did they "experience" the outpouring?
Originally Posted by standingfirminChrist
They experienced the outpouring of the Spirit, Amy. They did not receive it.
All means all.
And I asked:
Amy.G said:Exactly how did they experience the outpouring of the Spirit?
What does it mean to "experience" God's Spirit?
You did not answer me. How did they "experience" the outpouring?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Amy.G said:SFIC, regarding the mockers at Pentacost, I asked you if they had the Spirit poured out on them. You said:
And I asked:
You did not answer me. How did they "experience" the outpouring?
Amy, I was not there to say how any experienced it. Many who were mocking experienced the fact that the Holy Spirit had fell upon all men... just as Scripture states. Many refused to allow that Spirit to take root in their hearts and lives.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
larryjf said:Actually, your view on God's sovereignty is severely lacking and erroneous.
It is God who controls salvation, not man.
Christ's atonement does not make a possibility of salvation for all, rather it makes a surety of salvation for the elect.
Wrong!
The Word of God never says God controls salvation. He is salvation Himself. He gives salvation. He offers Salvation to any person who is thirsty.
It is the Calvinist doctrine that is trying to control salvation.