Does KJVO equal Fundamental?

[Yeshua1]

It is KJV-only advocates who have been shown to use illogical rhetoric such as the fallacy of begging the question, special pleading, the fallacy of false dilemma, and the fallacy of composition along with using divers measures or weights. You failed to show that I used any illogic.

Has Timothy Morton corrected his false claims?

Timothy Morton contended that "the 1762 and 1769 [editions] were to update the spelling" and that "by 1769 whatever slight textual errors that still remained were removed, and the text was finally free from any man-made error" (Which Translation Should You Trust, p. 42). Morton claimed: “Not one change made in any of the editions of the Authorized Version was to update the language or correct a (supposed) mistranslation” (p. 44).

How can there have been errors though in the perfect 1611 version though?
Which edition of the 1769 is the real one?

Do KJVO include varients that are used in the margins as possible bible or not?

 

[robycop3]

How many different English versions were there before the English landed in America? How many English version did the scholars at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cambridge, Westminster et al have to debate over? Does it really make sense to claim that the KJV debate was a non issue in early fundamentalism when they didn't have the plethora of Bible translations we have today? So naturally the debate back then would have been about Bibles translated from the TR or the texts of W&H. How many of the English churches accepted the Douay Rheims? How many Protestants and Baptists accepted the RV or ASV? Not too many and how many other churches were promoting newer translations against the KJV back in 1880? 1890? 1900?

So to say that the KJVO wasn't a debate is pretty non sequitur. There wasn't a debate AGAINST the KJV either so that argument works both ways.

Don't forget that the GENEVA BIBLE was the first English version known to have been brought to what is now the "lower 48" 0f the USA.

And of course there was very little "KJVO" before the newer versions began arising. While 7TH DAY ADVENTIST Dr. Wilkinson wrote the book that would become the "foundation stone" of the KJVO myth in 1930, he wasn't trying to start that doctrine. he wrote it in response to a squabble within his cult. He gathered all the pro-KJVO snippets from various sources that he could find, and put-em all in one book. (Remember, Dr. W argued vehemently at the conference where the squabble began, in favor of E. G. White's writings, which he placed on a par with Scripture!)

His book was all-but-forgotten by 1955, when work on some MVs began, such as J. B. Phillips' translation, parts of which were published in 1947 & 1952. The RSV and ASV were already out by 1955 as well as Knox' translation of the Vulgate.

Then, "J. J. Ray", whoever that is/was, discovered Dr. W's book, and the current KJVO myth was under way.

But I'm not sure just when and how the KJVO myth came to be associated with indie fundie Baptists. (I am IFB myself.) There were many IFB churches around before KJVO began, and more than one began using MVs as they became available, while others stuck with the KJV without adopting the KJV myth. If anyone knows the skinny on this "association", I, & many othere would liketa see it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't forget that the GENEVA BIBLE was the first English version known to have been brought to what is now the "lower 48" 0f the USA.

And of course there was very little "KJVO" before the newer versions began arising. While 7TH DAY ADVENTIST Dr. Wilkinson wrote the book that would become the "foundation stone" of the KJVO myth in 1930, he wasn't trying to start that doctrine. he wrote it in response to a squabble within his cult. He gathered all the pro-KJVO snippets from various sources that he could find, and put-em all in one book. (Remember, Dr. W argued vehemently at the conference where the squabble began, in favor of E. G. White's writings, which he placed on a par with Scripture!)

His book was all-but-forgotten by 1955, when work on some MVs began, such as J. B. Phillips' translation, parts of which were published in 1947 & 1952. The RSV and ASV were already out by 1955 as well as Knox' translation of the Vulgate.

Then, "J. J. Ray", whoever that is/was, discovered Dr. W's book, and the current KJVO myth was under way.

But I'm not sure just when and how the KJVO myth came to be associated with indie fundie Baptists. (I am IFB myself.) There were many IFB churches around before KJVO began, and more than one began using MVs as they became available, while others stuck with the KJV without adopting the KJV myth. If anyone knows the skinny on this "association", I, & many othere would liketa see it.

true, the Kjvo were mainly from the SDA cult early on, and their positions got fresh blood from those who were having big problems whn modern versions were starting to come out and get used!

 

[Inspector Javert]

If anyone knows the skinny on this "association", I, & many othere would liketa see it.

That is a lie... You would NOT "like to see it"...and you wouldn't pay any heed to anyone who attempted to explain it to you.

If God himself walked up to you in a three-piece suit and explained (in imminent detail) that particular "association" to you, you wouldn't care a tinker's damn.

 

[robt.k.fall]

I on the other hand will attempt to answer the question. Though because of Real Life, it may take me a day or so.

That is a lie... You would NOT "like to see it"...and you wouldn't pay any heed to anyone who attempted to explain it to you.

If God himself walked up to you in a three-piece suit and explained (in imminent detail) that particular "association" to you, you wouldn't care a tinker's damn.

 

[Luke2427]

You tell me?

The converse is certainly true.

You cannot be KJVO and not be the worst KIND of fundamentalist.

No educated person who knows beans from apple butter about history and hermeneutics would touch KJVO with a ten foot poll.

 

[evangelist6589]

A clear indication that fundamental Baptists have lost their distinctions.

Not true. Plenty of IFB at BJU were not KJVO.

 

[timjarrb]

One reason atheist I have talked to will not accept the faith ? Is because Christians use so many different bibles . Jesus is Lord

 

[sag38]

Give me a break! Were we all to have just one translation they would still be atheists. And yes, Jesus is Lord.

 

[Mexdeaf]

One reason atheist I have talked to will not accept the faith ? Is because Christians use so many different bibles . Jesus is Lord

That's an excuse, not a reason. The true reason is that they deny ANY Bible is God's Word.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

No Big Surprize There.....

Not true. Plenty of IFB at BJU were not KJVO.

KJVO's such as myself wouldn't be comfortable at BJU if they were outspoken about the matter. I know that well cause I live in this area and have had many contacts with these folks over the years. I have a friend whom I hold in the highest regard who teaches in their seminary and have been a member of IFB churches in the Greenville area over the years. I was encouraged by BJU admin members to adopt the use of the NASB back in the late 70's before I came to my own personal convictions regarding the KJV. I think they lean more toward the ESV these days. It is my understanding that there is (or at least was) a plaque on the pulpit in the big Founders Memorial Amphitorium that says that "only the KJV shall be used during preaching" (not an exact quote) there. BJU is an interesting study in contrasts and always has been. As much as I love the place and the people that I have met from there I'm far more comfortable with the "camp-meeting" crowd at Tabernacle across town. I like the folks that shout praises and amens to God and "get happy" sometimes when the Word is being preached. Just my preference I guess. I am also completely uncomfortable sitting through any preaching that is being done using a modern Bible version. It just doesn't have the "ring" of truth or trustworthiness to me. I know that kind of statement will make some here nearly foam at the mouth but I'm sorry. After all these years I know what I am comfortable (or not) with....and God has blessed me tremendously and beyond my ability to describe it adequately. God is good...all the time.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Inspector Javert]

One reason atheist I have talked to will not accept the faith ? Is because Christians use so many different bibles . Jesus is Lord

Your detractors are half-right...in that the avowed atheist would remain so regardless. But, it absolutely does detract from the general confidence placed in the Bible. I DO know this, at least 50% of the so-called "contradictions" in the Bible...are often cleared-up IMMEDIATELY if you merely consult a KJV. They often exist only in M.V.'s.

Yes...it's an excuse often....but, to the ignorant, I do believe it is often a stumbling-block to them. But, then again, I don't expect any anti-kjvo's to be objective or intellectually honest enough to consider the possibility that what you and I are suggesting doesn't indeed have a modicum of truth to it, nor would their type honestly research the notion.

Anti-KJVO's (the avowedly passionate sort anyway) are dyed-in-the-wool unreachable fundamentalist crazies...one can't reach them with logic, reason nor fact.....They don't know "beans from apple butter" about the topic usually.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Yes...and...

That's an excuse, not a reason. The true reason is that they deny ANY Bible is God's Word.

Mex... I'll grant you that that is true...Atheists have no good or real reasons for their unbelief...they are ALL about excuses and this (the Bible version thing) is just another of the many they use to try to justify themselves. Their pride simply prevents them from acknowledging that there is a Creator God Who has the right to tell them how they should or must live their lives. There is NO wisdom or redeeming value in atheism.

Beyond that, as a KJVO adherent, I am of the opinion and do believe that the plethora of different Bible versions has promoted much confusion in our assemblies since their inception in modern times. They have not led to any of the revivals or awakenings of days gone by (where the KJV was likely the ONLY Bible that was in use)and if anything have promoted more division in the body of Christ. Just look around you at the condition of the modern church. We have more spiritual "resources" than ANY of the previous contemporary churches of days gone by and we are watching the erosion of the modern church and also our country and our world both spiritually and morally......yet we are "increased with goods and have need of nothing" (or so we think). In actuality this world (and much of the "professing" church) is going to "Hell in a handbasket" as they say. All these modern Bibles have done nothing to change that. Yet...even from where I sit and with the limited contacts I have I see and hear of small pockets of faithful believers (among English-speaking churches and groups)who love God and cling to a faithfulness to Him and His Word, using their KJV's and winning souls and preaching the Word faithfully.

Mex...one last thing....I don't have (and I'm sure you don't either) enough faith to be an Atheist. There is just too much evidence surrounding us to be that ignorant...amen?

By the way, you mentioned in an earlier post or thread that you'd enjoy sitting down with me for a cup of coffee. I'd like that if it ever was possible. God Bless you brother.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Your detractors are half-right...in that the avowed atheist would remain so regardless. But, it absolutely does detract from the general confidence placed in the Bible. I DO know this, at least 50% of the so-called "contradictions" in the Bible...are often cleared-up IMMEDIATELY if you merely consult a KJV. They often exist only in M.V.'s.

Yes...it's an excuse often....but, to the ignorant, I do believe it is often a stumbling-block to them. But, then again, I don't expect any anti-kjvo's to be objective or intellectually honest enough to consider the possibility that what you and I are suggesting doesn't indeed have a modicum of truth to it, nor would their type honestly research the notion.

Anti-KJVO's (the avowedly passionate sort anyway) are dyed-in-the-wool unreachable fundamentalist crazies...one can't reach them with logic, reason nor fact.....They don't know "beans from apple butter" about the topic usually.

Excuse me, but... I call baloney on this one. I've met far more people who were confused by the KJV than are confused by anything they read (or did not read) in an MV.

And as for "craziness"- you can't get any loopier than Mrs. "God And Riplinger" and Peter "If a twentieth-century college educated American does not believe in UFOs (and UFO occupants) he is MENTALLY SICK. He should see a shrink" (exact quote) Ruckman. Seriously, for you to call anti-KJVO's "crazies" is... crazy.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Mex... I'll grant you that that is true...Atheists have no good or real reasons for their unbelief...they are ALL about excuses and this (the Bible version thing) is just another of the many they use to try to justify themselves. Their pride simply prevents them from acknowledging that there is a Creator God Who has the right to tell them how they should or must live their lives. There is NO wisdom or redeeming value in atheism.

Beyond that, as a KJVO adherent, I am of the opinion and do believe that the plethora of different Bible versions has promoted much confusion in our assemblies since their inception in modern times. They have not led to any of the revivals or awakenings of days gone by (where the KJV was likely the ONLY Bible that was in use)and if anything have promoted more division in the body of Christ. Just look around you at the condition of the modern church. We have more spiritual "resources" than ANY of the previous contemporary churches of days gone by and we are watching the erosion of the modern church and also our country and our world both spiritually and morally......yet we are "increased with goods and have need of nothing" (or so we think). In actuality this world (and much of the "professing" church) is going to "Hell in a handbasket" as they say. All these modern Bibles have done nothing to change that. Yet...even from where I sit and with the limited contacts I have I see and hear of small pockets of faithful believers (among English-speaking churches and groups)who love God and cling to a faithfulness to Him and His Word, using their KJV's and winning souls and preaching the Word faithfully.

Mex...one last thing....I don't have (and I'm sure you don't either) enough faith to be an Atheist. There is just too much evidence surrounding us to be that ignorant...amen?

By the way, you mentioned in an earlier post or thread that you'd enjoy sitting down with me for a cup of coffee. I'd like that if it ever was possible. God Bless you brother.

Bro.Greg:saint:

From where I sit I see people coming to Christ frequently and being discipled from MV's every week. I guess it's like the old saying - "Two men looked out through prison bars, one saw mud another saw stars." I'm not dissing, you understand, point is- it's all about perspective.

If you ever come out to rattlesnake country in W. Texas, I think we have a Starbucks about 40 miles from where I live- :laugh:. Now if you want BBQ, that's a whole lot nearer.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Excuse me, but... I call baloney on this one. I've met far more people who were confused by the KJV than are confused by anything they read (or did not read) in an MV.

And as for "craziness"- you can't get any loopier than Mrs. "God And Riplinger" and Peter "If a twentieth-century college educated American does not believe in UFOs (and UFO occupants) he is MENTALLY SICK. He should see a shrink" (exact quote) Ruckman. Seriously, for you to call anti-KJVO's "crazies" is... crazy.

If you, then, think that the KJVO argument boils down to Riplinger and Ruckman...than you prove my point.
Any anti-KJVO-wacko fundamentalist who actually thinks that the argument boils down to "Riplinger and Ruckman vs. the Universe" is In my opinion, an idiot. And frankly, if you think Riplinger and Ruckman are the authorities on the topic...than I submit that:
You don't know "beans from apple-butter" about it.

As a Liner note: I've said NOTHING about being "confused by" a KJV....what I said was that alleged "contradictions" in the Bible often touted by the detractors are often IMMEDIATELY erased when one consults a KJV vs a M.V.....
I stand by that.

Now, I'm insanely disinterested in what you claim to be your legions of folks whom you allege are "confused" by the KJV.....
What I ACTUALLY said...is that I maintain that numerous...(hundreds even) of alleged "contradictions" in the Bible immediately disappear if one simply consults the KJV vs. a M.V.
I stand by that.
You don't have to be KJVO as far as I care...heck...I don't care a fig for most of your opinions on this board...I think you're dead-wrong on LEGIONS of issues..

I don't mean that any person who is NOT KJVO is a "wacko" (you see, I speak English, like the translators of the KJV did)...I mean only that the "ANTI-KJVO'S" who make a desperate point of it are deranged sickos.

No one asks you to be KJVO...we ask you to leave KJVO'S alone....if you're incapable of that???...than I call you a deranged Fundamentalist wacko freak.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Time will tell...

From where I sit I see people coming to Christ frequently and being discipled from MV's every week. I guess it's like the old saying - "Two men looked out through prison bars, one saw mud another saw stars." I'm not dissing, you understand, point is- it's all about perspective.

If you ever come out to rattlesnake country in W. Texas, I think we have a Starbucks about 40 miles from where I live- :laugh:. Now if you want BBQ, that's a whole lot nearer.

Mex...I think time will be that which reveals the "fruits" of the MV's....and I don't personally believe that that fruit will be on-par with that which was born over the course of the last 400 plus years. Most of the contemporary mainline churches have already ditched the Word of God and the results are "telling". I believe the Gospel will bear fruit to itself but that doesn't necessarily relate directly to the version of the scripture in use. However, the KJV is already time-tested and proven and history has already shown it to be solid and reliable.

Now...as for that cup of joe...if it is Starbucks I will pass for the following reason that my dear Aunt Earline just made clear to me in the following quote from Townhall.com :

"Starbucks: Do you really need overpriced coffee from a corporation that detests traditional marriage? Not only is Starbucks pro-gay marriage, but when a shareholder complained that boycotts over gay marriage were costing the company money, "Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz responded...by telling him that he could, ’sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company.’” If you're a Christian or just someone who believes in traditional marriage, the CEO of Starbucks is publicly saying he doesn't want your business. Can't you find your coffee somewhere else where you aren't forced to swallow Starbucks’ disdain for you along with your Java?"

I already knew Starbucks was "liberal" but that seals it for me. Just give me a cup of homebrewed Folgers or something from McDonalds. Now on the BBQ....anytime, anywhere my dear brother.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Mex...I think time will be that which reveals the "fruits" of the MV's....and I don't personally believe that that fruit will be on-par with that which was born over the course of the last 400 plus years. Most of the contemporary mainline churches have already ditched the Word of God and the results are "telling". I believe the Gospel will bear fruit to itself but that doesn't necessarily relate directly to the version of the scripture in use. However, the KJV is already time-tested and proven and history has already shown it to be solid and reliable.

Now...as for that cup of joe...if it is Starbucks I will pass for the following reason that my dear Aunt Earline just made clear to me in the following quote from Townhall.com :

"Starbucks: Do you really need overpriced coffee from a corporation that detests traditional marriage? Not only is Starbucks pro-gay marriage, but when a shareholder complained that boycotts over gay marriage were costing the company money, "Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz responded...by telling him that he could, ’sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company.’” If you're a Christian or just someone who believes in traditional marriage, the CEO of Starbucks is publicly saying he doesn't want your business. Can't you find your coffee somewhere else where you aren't forced to swallow Starbucks’ disdain for you along with your Java?"

I already knew Starbucks was "liberal" but that seals it for me. Just give me a cup of homebrewed Folgers or something from McDonalds. Now on the BBQ....anytime, anywhere my dear brother.

Bro.Greg:saint:

I am not a Starbucks fan by any means but that's not exactly what the fella said. He said nothing to the consumer, he is speaking to investors saying 'if you don't want to be a part owner of the company invest somewhere else'

I don't go because I get a better cup of coffee at McDonalds for a fraction of the cost .

If The Lord tarries another 400 years I think we will able to say that God works no matter what English translation His people use.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Maybe..but...

I am not a Starbucks fan by any ,Emma's, but that's not exactly what the fella said. He said nothing to the consumer, he is speaking to investors saying 'if you don't want to be a part owner of the company invest somewhere else'

I don't go because I get a better cup of coffee at McDonalds for a fraction of the cost .

If The Lord tarries another 400 years I think we will able to say that God works no matter what English translation His people use.

Maybe.....but I'd be willing to say now that the KJV will never fall by the wayside. Even so Lord...come quickly!raying: The way language is steadily being degraded I'd hate to see what will pass for "english" even 50 years from now.

By the way...Amen on the Mickey D's coffee!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Maybe.....but I'd be willing to say now that the KJV will never fall by the wayside. Even so Lord...come quickly!raying: The way language is steadily being degraded I'd hate to see what will pass for "english" even 50 years from now.

By the way...Amen on the Mickey D's coffee!

Bro.Greg:saint:

Languages change. That doesn't necessarily mean degradation.

McD has a scheme ehere where every 7th cup is free. Some people (not me of course ) have been known to scour tables looking for stickers on cups people leave on the table.