Does Love Require Free Will?

[Mark Corbett]

If those who are lost are able to resist God efforts to save them, are they not by definition superior to Him then?

No.

They are only able to resist because God allows it. There are many examples where someone in authority tolerates someone under them resisting their authority. God will not allow this forever. But He temporarily allows it for His good purposes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

However, no person will keep God from reaching His great goal of having a world full of people who are as loving, kind, honest, good, and pure as Jesus. A world full of people who willingly and joyfully submit to Him because we know He is good and He loves us and we can trust Him fully. God is successfully working towards that goal now and that goal WILL be reached in the New Heaven and New Earth.

You do realise, don't you that your statement is entirely compatible with Calvinism?
However, I ask again; if God loves everybody enough to save them, why isn't everybody saved?

They are only able to resist because God allows it.

So He doesn't love them enough to save them, but allows them to perish.

 

[Mark Corbett]

You do realise, don't you that your statement is entirely compatible with Calvinism?

Many statements I make are entirely compatible with Calvinism. And many statements Calvinists make are entirely compatible with Arminianism. In fact, if a Christian says something like, "God is great and powerful and created everything and rules over all," that would be compatible with Islam!

But of course, we (evangelical Calvinists and evangelical non-Calvinists) actually agree on a great deal. In fact, imo, what we agree on is far more important than the areas where we disagree. And hopefully, that is also something we agree about!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, in a very limited way a person can prevent one part of God's desire from being accomplished. Specifically, they can keep themselves from being saved by rejecting His gracious salvation.

However, no person will keep God from reaching His great goal of having a world full of people who are as loving, kind, honest, good, and pure as Jesus. A world full of people who willingly and joyfully submit to Him because we know He is good and He loves us and we can trust Him fully. God is successfully working towards that goal now and that goal WILL be reached in the New Heaven and New Earth.

As far as God not being able to grant created beings free will, that is a strange claim. He can create the universe out of nothing, but is not capable of making creatures with free will if He so chooses? But why would He want to do such a thing? Love.

he did do just that with Adam, but the fall made sure none save Jesus would ever have that real free will ever again!

 

[Yeshua1]

You do realise, don't you that your statement is entirely compatible with Calvinism?
However, I ask again; if God loves everybody enough to save them, why isn't everybody saved?

So He doesn't love them enough to save them, but allows them to perish.

So once again, the creator is being denied His will by his creation!

 

[Yeshua1]

No.

They are only able to resist because God allows it. There are many examples where someone in authority tolerates someone under them resisting their authority. God will not allow this forever. But He temporarily allows it for His good purposes.

God never really intended to save those people then, correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Many statements I make are entirely compatible with Calvinism. And many statements Calvinists make are entirely compatible with Arminianism. In fact, if a Christian says something like, "God is great and powerful and created everything and rules over all," that would be compatible with Islam!

True, but when you declare that humans are able to resist God's will (contra Proverbs 21:30-31 etc., etc.) you make God's achieving of His goal dependent upon Man.

But of course, we (evangelical Calvinists and evangelical non-Calvinists) actually agree on a great deal. In fact, imo, what we agree on is far more important than the areas where we disagree. And hopefully, that is also something we agree about!

That is true (IMO) of classic Arminianism, but it is not clear to me that you are an Arminian.

 

[utilyan]

When Jesus Christ presents an example of Agape his choice was The GOOD SAMARITAN.

Does Jesus Christ have free will? If the answer is Yes then he is not 100% human.


At the fall with Adam and Eve. God gives a list of consequences. You would think the most brutal of punishments to be mentioned. None state a loss of free will or the loss of capacity to do any good which would easily top all the consequences as the worst thing even if we were to multiply the consequences listed by a hundred.

 

[utilyan]

Look at it as all of us deserve etrnal Hell, and that God ahs chosen to save any of us is grace!

Show scripture where God states this. Or is your judgment greater then God's?


Plenty can argue God made the call of what mankind deserves with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.


When the garbage man rolls around do you throw your kid at the truck before it hits a garbage can?

 

[MennoSota]

So, the greatest act of love in the universe was a sacrifice for others which involved an act of free will. Does God want us to have this type of love for others? The answer is yes:

Interestingly, the greatest act of love starts when Jesus tells the Father: "Not my will but thine be done."

We must acknowledge that humanity is never free. We are either slaves to sin or we are adopted children of the Most High King. The transfer of ownership is out of our hands. This is a transaction started and completed by our Sovereign God and we have no ability to accept or reject that transaction.
We are free to express love within that confine of relationship, but such expression is never freed to the point of being our own god where we write our own contract and set up our own transaction. Love does not require such a position of status from us. We do not need to be a god in order to love the Sovereign God of the Universe.

So...no, free-will is not needed. In fact the concept is one that attempts to give god-staus to human beings and is therefore contrary to the Bible.

 

[utilyan]

Interestingly, the greatest act of love starts when Jesus tells the Father: "Not my will but thine be done."

We must acknowledge that humanity is never free. We are either slaves to sin or we are adopted children of the Most High King. The transfer of ownership is out of our hands. This is a transaction started and completed by our Sovereign God and we have no ability to accept or reject that transaction.
We are free to express love within that confine of relationship, but such expression is never freed to the point of being our own god where we write our own contract and set up our own transaction. Love does not require such a position of status from us. We do not need to be a god in order to love the Sovereign God of the Universe.

So...no, free-will is not needed. In fact the concept is one that attempts to give god-staus to human beings and is therefore contrary to the Bible.

I think you need to raise your bar of "GOD-STATUS".

You guys probably think i'm a Saint because I can twitter.

How great and powerful a human is only magnifies God.

A Fear-based God is naturally stupid.


The overall distortion of Calvinism will be focus on fear and power, much like the Muslims.


How does ABSOLUTE POWER Sovereignty show love?

VS.

How does PERFECT LOVE show Absolute Power and sovereignty?


The Calvinist looks to who is holding the gun, A Christian looks at who holding a heart.

Scripture states God is Love.



Jesus Christ chose. Nice try on taking the free will of GOD.

John 10

17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”



My own initiative. <--about as plainly plain as only the plainly stupid would deny.

 

[MennoSota]

I think you need to raise your bar of "GOD-STATUS".

You guys probably think i'm a Saint because I can twitter.

How great and powerful a human is only magnifies God.

A Fear-based God is naturally stupid.


The overall distortion of Calvinism will be focus on fear and power, much like the Muslims.


How does ABSOLUTE POWER Sovereignty show love?

VS.

How does PERFECT LOVE show Absolute Power and sovereignty?


The Calvinist looks to who is holding the gun, A Christian looks at who holding a heart.

Scripture states God is Love.



Jesus Christ chose. Nice try on taking the free will of GOD.

John 10

17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”



My own initiative. <--about as plainly plain as only the plainly stupid would deny.

You are entirely wrong, as usual.

 

[utilyan]

You are entirely wrong, as usual.

Here is an easy challenge for our overly elect bretheren.

One of these is Christian scripture the other if a FAKE LIE.

No CHEATING! Don't look at the bible yet. Tell us which scripture you think is true and which is a FAKE LIE.

Is it A or B?


A
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

B
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes after being made righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


A
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

B
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to cause belief in those he saved.

A
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


B
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ye believed,


A
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

B
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here is an easy challenge for our overly elect bretheren.

One of these is Christian scripture the other if [sic]a FAKE LIE.

1. How is it possible to be 'overly elect'?
2. What is a 'fake lie'? How does it differ from a real lie?

Just wondering.

 

[utilyan]

1. How is it possible to be 'overly elect'?
2. What is a 'fake lie'? How does it differ from a real lie?

Just wondering.

1. Self-proclaimed.

2. Fake, lie. Like not true. pretend.

I think elaborating is needed, People are dumb enough to believe the backwards of what is written.


I put an easy challenge. I dunno what Calvinist are afraid of. Tell us which bible verses are in the bible and which one's are not and never will be in the bible.


Don't you love holy scripture? Take a guess which verse is actually scripture and what is stupid theology that is not in the bible.

 

[MennoSota]

utilyan,

Here's a link for all the verses in the Bible with the word "grace." Show me one where grace is merited by your works.

Grace

 

[Yeshua1]

Show scripture where God states this. Or is your judgment greater then God's?


Plenty can argue God made the call of what mankind deserves with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.


When the garbage man rolls around do you throw your kid at the truck before it hits a garbage can?

Jesus died more due to the glory and holiess of God than for sinners to get saved....
He died to save His elect and chosen, but those saved are for the glory of God, not because he saw ANYTHING in us worthy of Him...

 

[MennoSota]

Utility is desperate to paint a Holy God as a fear-based God. He cannot conceive of a God who is just and therefore justly punishes rebellious sinners. He cannot conceive a God who displays love by choosing to graciously save some while justly punishing those whom He chooses not to pardon.

Such is the faulty understanding that utility has regarding God and Love.

Somehow, utility imagines that Love can never judge and rightfully condemn sin. In his mind a loving God cannot send sinners to hell. Only those who choose hell, freely, can ever be condemned. However, utility has no biblical support for his faulty belief. Instead he desperately searches for verses out of context to use as a proof text for his twisted thoughts. In the end, he preaches works salvation as his gospel and therefore preaches no gospel at all.

 

[wTanksley]

"Dumb", "lie", "entirely wrong", "desperate"...

These are terms that the redeemed should be "desperate" to avoid using against one another. This thread does not show a good example of brothers disagreeing.

I hope we can do better than this.

 

[MennoSota]

"Dumb", "lie", "entirely wrong", "desperate"...

These are terms that the redeemed should be "desperate" to avoid using against one another. This thread does not show a good example of brothers disagreeing.

I hope we can do better than this.

Point the way, Tank. Share your view on the topic.