Does Scripture Need "Fixing?"

[Van]

If you use an English translation based on the Critical Text, you are aware that the scholars believe words have been added or altered to make one verse read like another verse. These "helpful" copiests did not actually help, but instead provided ammo for those who deny God's word.

Similarly, sometimes translators will add to or alter the text to fix what they believe might be a problem. Lets look at two translations of Mark 15:42.

When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, (NASB)
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath) So as evening approached, (NIV] ​

Here we can see either evening had come or evening was approaching. Now if you believe "evening" does not begin until sundown, thus the beginning of the Sabbath, then a problem exists. So rather than evening having arrived, the text is changed to have Jesus buried on Friday and not on the beginning of the Sabbath. However "evening" can be understood to begin an hour or two before sunset, and therefore it could still be Friday after evening had already come.

Bottom line, scripture does not need "fixing!"

 

[HankD]

No, of course not Van. But without passing judgment on the Mark 15:42 English translation, what might need fixing is a flawed translation of a scripture.


HankD

 

[Rippon]

From Vincent Word Studies
"The Hebrews reckoned two evenings, an earlier and a later. The former began midway between noon and sunset, or at three o'clock in the afternoon. The latter began at sunset, six o'clock. The reference here is to the earlier evening, though the time may have been well on toward the beginning of the latter. The preparations had to be hurried because the Sabbath would begin at sunset."

Hence the NIV and NLT rightly have "as evening approached"
Weymouth : "towards sunset"

The very same applies to the parallel passage in Matthew 27:57.

 

[Deacon]

'Evening' is a pretty elastic term.

Evening approaches as the sun goes down.
Evening is over when the sun goes down.

The key thing to communicate in the verse is that it was not yet night.

Sabbath regulations wouldn't allow burial after sunset (Deut 21:23).

Both translations convey that well.

Rob

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Critical text scholarship is built largely on the theories of apostate liberal scholars that went before them.

the modern textual critic and those who hold the critical text are never told about the theological apostacy and often denial of inspiration held by those like Tragelles,Griesbach, Nestle, Aland, Metzger, Tischendorf, Wescott, Hort, etc..

the critical textual theories were not developed by sound bible believers, and it's sad that most evangelicals don't have a clue as to the theological climates of the early 1800s when the so called science of textual criticism started developing.

 

[Deacon]

Critical text scholarship is built largely on the theories of apostate liberal scholars that went before them.

Both versions follow the same Greek text. The differences lie in the translation of the text.

Additionally. the TR and the Critical text do not differ here either.

Rob

 

[Deacon]

There seems to be a whole stream of threads missing at this point.

This concerns "The Parsons" missing posts on 1 Corinthians 1:18 where he noted that some versions use "being saved" verses "saved".


At the risk of boring you to death, I've done a grammatical morphology search for all New Testament passages with the form "verb, present passive participle, plural, dative, masculine" and compared them in the NIV, AV/KJV and NKJV.

Recognize that although the words differ, their grammatical structure is quite constant in each version. The AV consistently translates the present tense participle in a past tense manner.

Acts 28:10
They honored us in many ways; and when we were ready to sail, they furnished us with the supplies we needed. NIV

who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary. AV

They also honored us in many ways; and when we departed, they provided such things as were necessary. NKJV


1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NIV

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. AV

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NKJV


2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. NIV

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: AV

For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. NKJV


2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. NIV

and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, AV

and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, NKJV


1 Timothy 5:10
and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the Lord’s people, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work. NKJV


Hebrews 2:18
Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. NIV

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. AV

For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. NKJV


Hebrews 5:2
He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. NIV

who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. AV

He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. NKJV


1 Peter2:14
or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. NIV

or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. AV

or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. NKJV

Rob

 

[Van]

Hi Deacon, not sure how your post #7 fits into this thread. Mark 15:42's verb is 2Aor so the NASB translates it as past. If you want to translate it "already becoming evening" you leave the vast majority of published translations. But no argument can justify changing "becoming" to approaching. It is a mistranslation,

 

[Rippon]

If you want to translate it "already becoming evening" you leave the vast majority of published translations.

Why should that all of a sudden concern you? You have made scores of self-penned "translations" that exist in absolutely no translations and yet have proclaimed with pride that every translation is wrong and yours is how it "should be translated" thus and such.

But no argument can justify changing "becoming" to approaching.

What is your response to what Vincent said in post 3?

It is a mistranslation,

As TC has said :"In your fevered dreams." Ha,Ha.

 

[Van]

Translations that follow the underlying Greek grammar are accurate, those that alter the grammar to alter the message are without merit. Evening had come, it was not approaching. Perhaps both Mark 15:42 and Matthew 27:57 have been altered unnecessarily?

 

[Rippon]

Translations that follow the underlying Greek grammar are accurate,

If you desire Greeklish instead of English then consult an interlinear --not a translation. Translations are not slaves to the syntax of the original. Rearrangement of the sentence structure is common.

those that alter the grammar to alter the message are without merit.

Please note what I said above. There is no agenda to alter the message. Your premise is false.

Evening had come, it was not approaching.

As Rob mentioned in post 4, the word evening is rather elastic. The verse under discussion centers on the fact that it was before nighfall --before 6PM. It was before sunset. And many times sunset occurs shortly after 5. So it was late afternon, or dusk according to our way of thinking.

Perhaps both Mark 15:42 and Matthew 27:57 have been altered unnecessarily?

Not at all.

Mark 15:42
CEB : late in the afternoon
NIV and NLT : as evening approached
Weymouth : towards sunset

Matthew 27:57
NIV,NLT : As evening approached
Mounce : toward sunset
Weymouth : towards sunset

All of the above are perfectly acceptable to reasonable people. But you wish to apply some nefarious intention to the NIV rendering of these verses. Your focus is microscopic. You specialize in minutia. Tis a shame.

 

[Van]

Still waiting for Deacon to explain why nearly all translations of 2 Aor translate it as past, i.e. evening had come, rather than something in the future, i.e. evening was approaching. Barring some explanation, we have two more verses where the NIV messed up the translation, apparently on purpose.

 

[Deacon]

Here we can see either evening had come or evening was approaching. Now if you believe "evening" does not begin until sundown, thus the beginning of the Sabbath, then a problem exists.

I think you adequately explained the reason the NIV adopted the phrasiology that they did when you associated the phrase "evening had already come" as meaning after nightfall.

There was reason for haste in taking Jesus down from the cross and preparing his body.
Sabbath regulations proscribed interment before sunset (Deut 21:23).

Rob

 

[Van]

Thanks Deacon, I agree 2 Aorist should be translated as a past event, but evening did not mean the start of the Sabbath at either Mark 15:42 or Matthew 27:57. I will add them to the list.

 

[Van]

The elephant in the room is the claim these NIV mistranslations are somehow needed for functional equivalence, but that is obviously not true. The NIV uses omitted words, added words, and different word meanings to alter the message which of course results in functional non-equivalence.

Mistranslation in the NIV
1) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read, "therefore" *
2) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read, "moved with anger." *
3) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace." *
4) John 21:5 friends should read, "children."
5) Acts 13:50 "leaders" should be italicized to indicate an addition to the text.
6) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read, "propitiatory shelter."*
7) 1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."
8) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read, "children of wrath."
9) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.*
10) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read, "for salvation."
11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read, "who leads an undisciplined life" *
12) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read, "revealed in the flesh."*
13) Titus 3:4 love should read, "love for mankind." *
14) Hebrews 10:14 sacrifice should read, "offering."
15) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read, "yet rich in faith."
16) 1 Peter 4:6 those who are now dead should read, "those who are dead."
17) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation." *
18) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
19) Rev. 13:8 from the creation should read, "from the foundation."
20) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read, "be with all."
21) 1 Samuel 15:19 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
22) 1 Samuel 15:20 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
23) 1 Samuel 15:22 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
24) Philemon 1:6 the verse should read as follows: "I pray that your participation in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every blessing that belongs to you in Christ."
25) 1 Corinthians 14:29 should read "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate." The NIV added "carefully" and "what is said."
26) Mark 15:42 "evening approached" should read "evening had already come."
27) Matthew 27:57 "evening approached" should read "evening had come."

Examples 1, 9, 13, 21, 22, and 23 document omission of words or parts of words.
Examples 5, 15, 16 and 25 document addition of words.
Examples 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 26 and 27 document replacement of the inspired word with a different word or different words.
Example 24 documents a translation devoid of meaning, just an array of disconnected phrases.

 

[Rippon]

Van spammer. Could you please refrain from going off-topic? You had started this thread by focusing on Mark 15:42. It's perfectly fine to also deal with parallel passages as well. But for you to constantly use this forum to foist your bold-faced, fictionalized "list" at every drop of the hat, is rather annoying and infantile. Get a new habit, one that is constructive and edifying.

 

[HankD]

Aorist in most cases is translated as simple past tense, however it is a flexible element of Koine Greek.

Here are some variant exceptions:

1) The constative aorist.
2) The ingressive aorist.
3) The cumulative aorist.
4) The gnomic aorist.
5) The epistolary aorist (this sometimes even needs a present or future tense consideration).
6) The dramatic aorist.

Extract:
A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, 1955, pages 193 - 200.

Please do a Google on the one(s) of interest. It's far too technical and complex an issue in terms of nuance and idiom for this manner of board.

Or buy a Koine Greek grammar. Also I am rusty on these details. I took my 3 semesters of Greek 44 years ago.



HankD

 

[HankD]

Here is a helpful website for the koine aorist tense.

http://ezraproject.com/id34.html

HankD

 

[Van]

Thanks HankD, past it is and past it should be translated. Evening had already come.

 

[HankD]

Thanks HankD, past it is and past it should be translated. Evening had already come.

Agreed Van. The other issue is the meaning of "evening" (Grk. opsios, opsinos).

Strongs 3798 opsios Either from 3:00 to 6:00 PM - or from 6:00 PM on.
Friberg Greek Lexicon 03868 opsios Either before or just after sundown.
UBS Lexicon 04476 opsios Late.
Louw-Nida Lexicon opsios pertaining to a point near the end of the day (normally after sundown but before night).

Also a possibility of impact involvement:

Shabbat ends at nightfall, when three stars are visible, approximately 40 minutes after sunset. At the conclusion of Shabbat, the family performs a concluding ritual called Havdalah (separation, division). Blessings are recited over wine, spices and candles. Then a blessing is recited regarding the division between the sacred and the secular, between Shabbat and the working days, etc. For details, see Havdalah Home Ritual.

my emboldening.

http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

The impact: If the Sabbath ends when three stars are visible, does every other day?
However, I don't know if this Talmudic tradition was in force in Jesus day and is it God's definition found somewhere in the scripture seeing it is a Talmudic tradition?

HankD