doesn't the fall of Adam show that free will by itself cannot provide salvation?

[Skandelon]

Even most Arminians will confess that it is impossible for a person not to sin. It is full blown Pelagians that believe infants are not born with a sin nature and can, at least theoretically, live a sinless life that merits salvation.

Supposing someone does not sin in their lives. Maybe someone born in a comatose state, and never even becomes conscience. Would that merit their being saved? I don't believe so.

I believe that they would need grace and Christ's provision just as much as you and I do. Don't you?

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Many can easily condemn the innocent because they do not know what mercy really is. God given emotions are not evil they were given for a reason such as this.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus could not have sinned for the simple reason that God decreed before creation that Jesus would be the SINLESS, PERFECT Lamb of God.

God's decrees are 100% certain.

 

[Yeshua1]

If Jesus could not sin then he would not have been like his brethren the Jews in all things. He would not have the same nature as the seed of Abraham. This is what you are arguing, that he had a different nature than man. Not so.

As I showed before, Jesus himself implied that he could lie. What is important is that he did not lie. I would have no difficulty telling anyone this.

Again, if Jesus could not sin, then the Spirit leading him into the wilderness to be tempted is nonsensical and meaningless.

jesus came as the second Adam. had a physical body and humanity that was NOT tainted at all by the effects of the fall, as ALL have been other then him!

Jesus death/resurrection was already preordaned by God the father, as a done deed, just had to be worked out in our time/history, so NEVER a "chance' would deny the will of the father and refuse the cross!

That is what satan said to peter....

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you somehow think I am denying Jesus Christ has come in the flesh because I believe He could not sin?? I don't know how you make that connection.

Jesus could not die, i.e. as Adam's race dies a slow death from sin without anyone doing a killing. He could be killed, as He was, because He was in our flesh. It stands to reason that if Jesus would not have been killed He would never have died. But He did not come to live an eternal flesh life, He came with purpose to be sacrificed in allowing Himself to be put to death.

If I was a lost soul and you being a Christian told me that your God could have failed at any point, then I wouldn't have much trust in placing my faith in such a god. Would you? Really? Think about your pov.

ALL flesh has been tainted by sin, NOT His though!

he was/is NOT exactly sameness as us, but in our llkeness!

You severly, and close to danerouslylower down our saviourto becoming on our levels!

ONLY he could have died in our place, NO other human would have EVER qualified as perfect !

 

[Yeshua1]

By the same token, God cannot change. Yet Jesus grew from a baby to a man. I'm exploring this topic for myself, but at first glance it seems to me that there is no victory without a chance of defeat. There is no example to resist temptation if He was unable to give in.

jesus NEVER changed as to His GOD nature attributes, just took on/added Humanity to himself!

And jesus endured tempattaions that were FAR worse for him than ANY of us, as being perfect and Holy, really felt and experienced it in fullness!

He could not sin, but still suffered and experienced it more so then we do!

 

[Yeshua1]

No it's not, and Christians through the ages have asked this question.

Your man R.C. Sproul believes Jesus could have sinned.



http://www.ligonier.org/blog/could-jesus-have-sinned/

thankfully, he was NOT an Apsotle, nor jesus, as they disagree with him!

 

[Yeshua1]

Look what happened when God appeared as a man and wrestled Jacob. Did God fail? According to scripture God lost the match and had to bless Jacob before Jacob released God.

Folks create their own image of God that is not in sync with scripture. It is difficult to understand how God could become a man and lose a wrestling match to a mortal man, yet that is exactly what the scriptures say.

Likewise, I believe Jesus had to endure temptation as a man and defeat Satan as a man. Without the possibility of sin there would have been no test.

You honestly believe almighty God would get beat down by Jabob?

God allowed that to happen!

he wanted to use an "object lesson" of his hip being out of jointto make him remember that God was the one to lean upon!

 

[Yeshua1]

Even most Arminians will confess that it is impossible for a person not to sin. It is full blown Pelagians that believe infants are not born with a sin nature and can, at least theoretically, live a sinless life that merits salvation.

Also, Adam and Eve were not perfect moral agents. If they were perfect they would have been non posse peccare (not able to sin).

OK!

Ho9w about created sinless, without a sin nature then?

 

[Winman]

Brother, in your quest to stamp out Calvinism (which you, nor anyone, will ever do) you are going to an extreme that just isn't true.

This has nothing to do with Calvinism, R.C. Sproul is absolutely a Calvinist, yet he believes Jesus could have sinned. That doesn't prove anything, I am just showing this is not an Arminian versus Calvinist debate.

This debate is whether Jesus truly came in the flesh and was completely human. If so, then he could have sinned. I believe Jesus actually implied he could sin and I showed the scripture to back this up. It also seems nonsensical to tempt Jesus if he could not sin. What kind of test is that?

You are trying to stress to us that God could fail in Jesus Christ, then you go to Jacob and try to prove that God did fail with Jacob.

All I can say is what the scriptures say, and they clearly say Jacob PREVAILED. This is a very simple and straightforwad story, very easy to understand.

What was Jacob's conclusion? Did Jacob believe he defeated God? Jacob said, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Hardly a victory cry.

Yes, I believe Jacob did understand he prevailed, and he demanded that God bless him before he would agree to let God go. And that is exactly what God did.

And what was the lesson for Jacob? God said, "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." As you can see, it does not say Jacob hast power OVER God.

It said Jacob had power WITH God and had prevailed. Prevailed means he won, he overcame. You can't ignore the word because you don't like it.

I believe the lesson is faith and to persist in prayer. Jesus told a similar story of a judge who feared no one, not even God. This woman had to persist to finally get her way with this judge. I believe this is what is being shown, Jacob was not going to give up until he got a blessing from God. This is a lesson to us to persist with God in prayer.

Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Many here have a false view of God. To many here God is just this gigantic supreme tyrant. He is made of stone and does whatever he wants with no regard to anyone.

This is not what scripture shows. Scripture shows God can be appealed to. If we continue to pray and pray, God will listen to our prayers, and oftentimes grant our requests if they are not sinful. Like a loving parent, God wants to give good things to his children when they ask. God is not made of stone, he is loving and patient. He is not interested in his glory only as many here falsely teach. He loves his children and is concerned with their needs.

And this is the story of Jacob, he wrestled with God. He would not give up, he demanded that God bless him, and he got his request.

 

[Winman]

You honestly believe almighty God would get beat down by Jabob?

God allowed that to happen!

he wanted to use an "object lesson" of his hip being out of jointto make him remember that God was the one to lean upon!

I believe what the scriptures say. The scriptures say God appeared as a man and wrestled with Jacob, and that Jacob prevailed.

I believe the word of God. It is you that does not believe what the scriptures plainly say. A child could understand this simple story.

 

[Winman]

thankfully, he was NOT an Apsotle, nor jesus, as they disagree with him!

Jesus implied he COULD sin.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said, "and if I should say, I KNOW HIM NOT, I shall be a liar like unto you"

Are you saying it was impossible for Jesus to say "I know him not"?? He actually said these very words in this verse.

And the word "if" denotes possibility. Why would Jesus even HINT that he might sin if it was absolutely impossible?

And again, why would the Spirit drive him into the wilderness to be tempted if he could not sin? What would be the point? That would be a useless and futile exercise.

Jesus became a man because he had to defeat the devil where Adam failed. He had to become a man capable of failing to defeat Satan. That is the whole purpose of becoming flesh.

 

[Yeshua1]

This has nothing to do with Calvinism, R.C. Sproul is absolutely a Calvinist, yet he believes Jesus could have sinned. That doesn't prove anything, I am just showing this is not an Arminian versus Calvinist debate.

This debate is whether Jesus truly came in the flesh and was completely human. If so, then he could have sinned. I believe Jesus actually implied he could sin and I showed the scripture to back this up. It also seems nonsensical to tempt Jesus if he could not sin. What kind of test is that?



What part of Him being BOTH fully God and fully man escaped you though?

can God sin?

 

[Winman]

ALL flesh has been tainted by sin, NOT His though!

he was/is NOT exactly sameness as us, but in our llkeness!

You severly, and close to danerouslylower down our saviourto becoming on our levels!

ONLY he could have died in our place, NO other human would have EVER qualified as perfect !

See what Yeshua1 says? How does this compare with scripture?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Do the scriptures say Jesus took on flesh and blood "like" us as Yeshua1 says? Or does it say he took part of THE SAME flesh and blood?

Does it say Jesus took on the nature of Adam before the fall as some teach, or does it say Jesus took on the nature of the "seed of Abraham" who were all born after the "fall"?

Does it say Jesus was made like us in some things, or in ALL THINGS?

Decide for yourself who is telling you the truth and who is not.

 

[Yeshua1]

See what Yeshua1 says? How does this compare with scripture?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Do the scriptures say Jesus took on flesh and blood "like" us as Yeshua1 says? Or does it say he took part of THE SAME flesh and blood?

Does it say Jesus took on the nature of Adam before the fall as some teach, or does it say Jesus took on the nature of the "seed of Abraham" who were all born after the "fall"?

Does it say Jesus was made like us in some things, or in ALL THINGS?

Decide for yourself who is telling you the truth and who is not.

can God sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe what the scriptures say. The scriptures say God appeared as a man and wrestled with Jacob, and that Jacob prevailed.

I believe the word of God. It is you that does not believe what the scriptures plainly say. A child could understand this simple story.

can God EVER be beaten? if he can, is that force doing it more powerful than he was/is?


God 'threw' the fight,as he wanted Jacob to learn a lesson in himility!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus implied he COULD sin.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said, "and if I should say, I KNOW HIM NOT, I shall be a liar like unto you"

Are you saying it was impossible for Jesus to say "I know him not"?? He actually said these very words in this verse.

And the word "if" denotes possibility. Why would Jesus even HINT that he might sin if it was absolutely impossible?

And again, why would the Spirit drive him into the wilderness to be tempted if he could not sin? What would be the point? That would be a useless and futile exercise.

Jesus became a man because he had to defeat the devil where Adam failed. He had to become a man capable of failing to defeat Satan. That is the whole purpose of becoming flesh.

NO!

Jesus was stating that if he lied about that thing, then he would indeed be like them, but he did not, so was not!

Are you now going to say that names can be erased out of lambs bool of Look, because the verse implies they can be. without stating it?

 

[Yeshua1]

See what Yeshua1 says? How does this compare with scripture?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Do the scriptures say Jesus took on flesh and blood "like" us as Yeshua1 says? Or does it say he took part of THE SAME flesh and blood?

Does it say Jesus took on the nature of Adam before the fall as some teach, or does it say Jesus took on the nature of the "seed of Abraham" who were all born after the "fall"?

Does it say Jesus was made like us in some things, or in ALL THINGS?

Decide for yourself who is telling you the truth and who is not.

lieness, NOT sameness, as hewas/is also eternal God, can you say the same?

 

[Winman]

NO!

Jesus was stating that if he lied about that thing, then he would indeed be like them, but he did not, so was not!

Jesus said that IF he said (speaking of the Father), "I know him not", then he would be a liar like the men he was speaking to.

Why would Jesus even say such a thing if he was not able to lie? If it was impossible for Jesus to lie, why didn't he say, "I cannot deny my Father, for it is impossible for me to lie"?

Are you now going to say that names can be erased out of lambs bool of Look, because the verse implies they can be. without stating it?

bool of Look? What is that?

The scriptures do imply that names can be blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse absolutely implies that Jesus will blot out the names of those who do not overcome, and that he will not confess their name before his Father and before his angels.

I have no idea what this has to do with whether Jesus was able to sin or not.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus said that IF he said (speaking of the Father), "I know him not", then he would be a liar like the men he was speaking to.

Why would Jesus even say such a thing if he was not able to lie? If it was impossible for Jesus to lie, why didn't he say, "I cannot deny my Father, for it is impossible for me to lie"?



bool of Look? What is that?

The scriptures do imply that names can be blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse absolutely implies that Jesus will blot out the names of those who do not overcome, and that he will not confess their name before his Father and before his angels.

I have no idea what this has to do with whether Jesus was able to sin or not.

That just as the names cannot be blotted out of the book of life , as Jesus state dthat he will keep those who are his own!

in same fashion, NOT stating IF as can sin, but that he cannot!