Don't Armeniens/Calvinists BOTh Teach Grace/Faith Alone ?

[Aaron]

Seems that both those of Free Will side and Election side teach and promote that we are saved by grace of GOD thru faith In Christ ALONE, so aren't we all agreeing on what the Gospel message really is?

No.

There is a fundamental difference in the Calvinist and Noncalvinist view of the condition of man, which is a result of their fundamentally different views of God and the nature of the Atonement. One cannot know God, and not know himself at the same time. It's one's view of God that determines his view of man.

The Calvinist teaches that man in his unregenerated state is utterly incapable of responding in faith to the Word of God. The Noncalvinist, whether he be Methodist or Mormon, teaches the exact opposite.

Since the views of the condition of man are different, so are their views of the nature and efficacy of the Atonement, and their views of Christ and His mission, and finally their views of the Father and His will.

They may use the same terms, but their meanings are diametrically opposed.

Calvinism is the Gospel. Anything else is not.

 

[Aaron]

I have a request. Can we please stop referring to irresistible grace as rape? I frankly am horrified by that expression, I don't care who thought it up.

I think it fits. Saving me was a violent act.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .for I
Except You enslave me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except You ravish me. —John Donne

 

[Winman]

snip...

The angel is using some strong language. He didn't say you could Mary, or that you may Mary, he said you shall Mary. He seems mighty certain that this is the way it's gonna go.

38 And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I'm not convinced that this is 'a consent' on her part. But I will admit that I'm at a lack of words to describe it, and that I had not even considered it from this angle before. I did some googling on this, Mary's consent seems to be a big deal with the Catholics. There's others that say God raped her if it was without her consent. There's something about this that is very distaseful to me.

snip...

Again, I'm not convinced that a consent is the right description of what occurred in v 38.

Well, I think it is as plain as the nose on your face that she gave her consent.

Could she have refused? I believe so.

But a Calvinist will use the false argument that she didn't refuse which shows she had to irresistably consent. This is a false argument because it is unprovable. Just because a person chooses to decide one way does not prove thay could not choose another option.


This is one of the false and illogical arguments Calvinists often employ.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, I agree that holy rape is a horrible term. But from what I have read it was R C Sproul who used this very expression in one or more of his books and sermons.

Calvinists here are always telling non-Cals like myself that we do not understand Calvinism and misrepresent it. I hardly believe they can say that of Sproul whose writings are often posted here.

Now if a noted Reformed author and scholar calls Irresistable Grace holy rape I believe that shows he clearly believes God forces himself on unwilling persons.

But then it is argued the person becomes willing. So do victims in this world, it is called the Stockholm Syndrome. Elizabeth Smart comes to mind, she was abducted by a pervert against her will and repeatedly assaulted. But the mind has a way of protecting itself and she became willing. This has been shown numerous times, Patty Hearst is another famous example.

So, do you really believe in your heart that a person who abducts and assaults a person against their will has committed no crime because the victim later becomes willing?

I like Sproul, but as I posted before, I don't care who originated the expression, I'm still horrified by it.

I also understand what Aaron was saying with his quote of John Donne, but it's still a little jarring.

 

[Rippon]

Look it up, I just showed the two books he used this expression and read the actual excerpts. It is easily found online.

Edit- And Sproul was not rebuking someone else who used this term, he used it himself to describe the conversion of a young man. If I was not on a mobile phone I would copy and paste the links and actual excerpts from his books. I do not have that feature, but trust me, I would love to show you so that you cannot falsely accuse me.

I am not making this up or misrepresenting Sproul, do a little work and look it up, I found it easily.

I am sorry Winman. You are right. R.C.Sproul did you use the offensive termin a positive sense. Perry Miller first used it in a negative waywhen he spoke of Jonathan Edwards. I still repudiate that terrible saying. I'm with Tom Butler on that.

 

[Rippon]

The famous Anglo-Roman Catholic -- C.S.Lewis said that he "was dragged kicking and screaming into the kingdom of God.' Those were the words not of a Calvinist,but those of an Arminian!

 

[Calv1]

No, Calvinists believe that God forces you to be saved whether you like it or not. Or, I should say, they believe God forces you to be saved and he forces you to like it.

I don't mean to be rude, but where do you get your information? God forces us?????

The bible teaches that we are unable to come to Jesus unless the Father draws us. God doesn't "Force us", but rathers gives us the desire and ability to love Him. Without that intervention our "Wills are SLAVES TO SIN and are unable to please God".

If God had grace on Hitler, Hitler would have loved the Lord.

Sorry, I just wish people would know both sides of the argument before making these misleading statements.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I don't mean to be rude, but where do you get your information? God forces us????? Sorry, I just wish people would know both sides of the argument before making these misleading statements.

You expect much from those opposing sovereign grace, my friend! Most get what they think is "calvinism" or "reformed" so out of whack and distorted that we often scratch our heads in wonderment.

And always are pleased when someone gets it right! :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

You expect much from those opposing sovereign grace, my friend! Most get what they think is "calvinism" or "reformed" so out of whack and distorted that we often scratch our heads in wonderment.

And always are pleased when someone gets it right! :thumbs:

Bob, you are somewhat incorrect here. While I agree there are some who are misinformed there are a few here on the BB, who are reformed AND THEY STATE -yes, God does force you

 

[Calv1]

You expect much from those opposing sovereign grace, my friend! Most get what they think is "calvinism" or "reformed" so out of whack and distorted that we often scratch our heads in wonderment.

And always are pleased when someone gets it right! :thumbs:

Thanks. I do expect much, for I fought the doctrines of grace for years, wrote papers and a book called "Intrinsic Autonomy", ANYTHING to grant myself the kingship mode that synergists hold to.

This is why I have much mercy on synergists, and don't call them heretics. Who knows, God uses us, the means to bring people into a God glorifying state, so let's be ever dilligent with the knowledge God has given us to bring our brothers into the truth.

 

[Calv1]

Bob, you are somewhat incorrect here. While I agree there are some who are misinformed there are a few here on the BB, who are reformed AND THEY STATE -yes, God does force you

They can state what they wish, since when does subjectivism matter?

To state that God "Forces" someone, (No offense), is total ignorance. Isn't it the synergist who prays "Oh Lord, change their heart"?

And who says it's a bad thing for God to put into man, out of mercy, a desire to love Him, to love and delight in good?

It's amazing that some would say "Oh, according to Calvinism, God forces man, whether he wants it or not to love good"!

Ask Paul, who was worse than Hitler, on the road to Damacus to kill Christians if he regrets that the Lord elected him!!!!!!

Oh, the mercy that is missed, the King of Kings pours out His love to change us, so that we are no longer a slave, a slave to sin, but that we now desire Him!

 

[Luke2427]

Bob, you are somewhat incorrect here. While I agree there are some who are misinformed there are a few here on the BB, who are reformed AND THEY STATE -yes, God does force you

Name one. I bet you can't provide a single quote.

I do not believe that God forces anybody to come to Christ or or forces men to do most anything else. And I have not read a single one who has said such a silly thing.

You nameless theology guys need to debate us rather than strawmen.

 

[Allan]

They can state what they wish, since when does subjectivism matter?

To state that God "Forces" someone, (No offense), is total ignorance. Isn't it the synergist who prays "Oh Lord, change their heart"?

And who says it's a bad thing for God to put into man, out of mercy, a desire to love Him, to love and delight in good?

It's amazing that some would say "Oh, according to Calvinism, God forces man, whether he wants it or not to love good"!

Ask Paul, who was worse than Hitler, on the road to Damacus to kill Christians if he regrets that the Lord elected him!!!!!!

Oh, the mercy that is missed, the King of Kings pours out His love to change us, so that we are no longer a slave, a slave to sin, but that we now desire Him!

LOL.. I think you misunderstood.. I said "there are a few here on the BB, who are reformed AND THEY STATE -yes, God does force you

 

[webdog]

You expect much from those opposing sovereign grace, my friend! Most get what they think is "calvinism" or "reformed" so out of whack and distorted that we often scratch our heads in wonderment.

And always are pleased when someone gets it right! :thumbs:

Bob, do you really have to go on these anti-arminian rants on each thread instead of adding something constructive to the discussions? Shouldn't we expect more from an administrator...what kind of example does that set for a new member?