Double Predestination

[InTheLight]

Romans 9:22-23; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; Revelation 16:5-7.

Those verses say nothing of what you are claiming.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[TCassidy]

Calvinism is named for John Calvin. Your Hispanic neighbor Jesus (Hesus) is irrelevant.

What is irrelevant is your insisting that what you (wrongly) insist is "calvinism" equates to John Calvin. It doesn't.

 

[TCassidy]

Who was Calvinism named after?

So, are you asserting that a Baptist is not a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ because Baptists are named for John the Baptist and not Christ?

It us you who insists on calling Baptist who believe in Particular Redemption "calvinists" even those we are not followers of John Calvin. All you are doing is committing the logical fallacy of guilt by association (even though we have no such association) and compounding it by the fallacy of appeal to authority (even though we don't consider Calvin to be an authority).

 

[TCassidy]

Both single and double predestination, as taught by Reformed/Calvinists, are not in the Holy Bible, and therefore false doctrines.

Ephesians 1:5 is not a false doctrine. Ephesians 1:11 is not a false doctrine.

Predestination is in the bible. Get used to it.

 

[InTheLight]

What is irrelevant is your insisting that what you (wrongly) insist is "calvinism" equates to John Calvin. It doesn't.

LOL.

New entry for the Calvinist Dictionary

Calvinism: Has nothing to do with John Calvin. (see Particular Redemption)

 

[tyndale1946]

Ephesians 1:5 is not a false doctrine. Ephesians 1:11 is not a false doctrine.

Predestination is in the bible. Get used to it.

I believe in predestination and rejoice in it!... Why do some brethren question what pertains to them?... Go figure?... Brother Glen

 

[Reynolds]

So, are you asserting that a Baptist is not a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ because Baptists are named for John the Baptist and not Christ?

It us you who insists on calling Baptist who believe in Particular Redemption "calvinists" even those we are not followers of John Calvin. All you are doing is committing the logical fallacy of guilt by association (even though we have no such association) and compounding it by the fallacy of appeal to authority (even though we don't consider Calvin to be an authority).

I only call people Calvinists who call themselves that. I don't call you a Calvinist.
Why is this sub forum titled "Calvinism and Arminianism"? Why not "Particular Baptist and Traditionalist"?

 

[InTheLight]

What is irrelevant is your insisting that what you (wrongly) insist is "calvinism" equates to John Calvin. It doesn't.
It us you who insists on calling Baptist who believe in Particular Redemption "calvinists" even those we are not followers of John Calvin.

So, following this same logic, should Lutherans be called something else? They don't follow Luther.

 

[TCassidy]

Why is this sub forum titled "Calvinism and Arminianism"?

You will have to ask whoever named it. But I am pretty sure whoever named it did not mean to limit it to baby sprinkling Presbyterians with a State Church and polity of assemblies of elders at various levels.

 

[TCassidy]

Why do some brethren question what pertains to them?

Probably because they are confused.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Ephesians 1:5 is not a false doctrine. Ephesians 1:11 is not a false doctrine.

Predestination is in the bible. Get used to it.

much misused verses by supports of this false teaching. In the first place, the Greek verb προορίζω simply means "to determine something before", but does not have to include any notion of "divine decree", which is what the theological twist to the word does. Secondly, Paul is writing to the "saints" (verse 1), who are no doubt saved Christians. He tells these in verse 4, that God had ἐκλέγομαι them, for the "purpose" that they might be, "holy and without blame before him in love". And, that He προορίζω them to "the adoption of children". Likewise in verse 11 Paul uses προορίζω, which is explained from verse 12, "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ". Exactly where in this chapter, or anywhere else, do we read that God προορίζω to "eternal life"? We have already seen from our exchanges before, that passages like Acts 13:48, contextually, where the Greek verb τάσσω has the middle use (corresponding to "judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life" verse 46), where the Gentiles, by their "glad" acceptance of this same Gospel Message that the Jews had earlier ἀπωθέομαι (rejected, which is a self action), and thereby "enrolled themselves" on the side of the Lord. Exactly What Joshua tells the children of Israel, "And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (24:15), where they had to CHOOSE (middle voice), between the One True God, and the false "gods" of this world. Like then, here the Gentiles "chose" to accept the Gospel Message and serve the Lord God of the Holy Bible. As Jesus' first words recorded in Mark's Gospel, "repent and believe in the Gospel" (1:15), where both actions are personal. God does not do the "repenting or believing" for any sinner. It is that simple, without the forcing of things by the Reformed for their theological bias!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Romans 9:22-23; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; Revelation 16:5-7.

Where exactly does it say in any of these passages you quote, that God is "glorified" in the death of the lost? Have you carefully read a much misused verse in Romans 9? Notice Paul's words, "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". If God either "predestined" these "vessels of wrath", or "gloried" in their "destruction", and this was His intention for them, then why would He "endure with MUCH (πολύς, abundant) longsuffering (μακροθυμία, patient enduring, forbearance)" with these who were damned? Rather, the language here clearly shows, like in the Book of Jonah, God's willingness for these "vessels of wrath", that they should "turn, and live.” (Ezekiel 18:32). Read the full verse in Ezekiel 18, and you will see the real heart of the Lord, "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”. Like Jonah and the wicked people of Nineveh, whom the Lord "so loved" (John 3:16), that He sent His Prophet to warn these sinners of the coming destruction, IF they continued in their evil ways. WHY would God even have bothered with these wicked people, who were not even part of the "elect", as they were non-Jews, and simply not "pass them by", as some teach about the "non-elect" in their understanding of Predestination? Reformed theology have greatly limited and thereby perverted the great love that God has for His own sinful creation!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Just WHY do the Reformed/Calvinists have such a hate for the so called "non-elect", that they are damned to eternal punishment, I will probably never understand. They claim that they love the whole world, as God does in John 3:13, and yet in their theology, they would limit the use of "world" here, to mean only the "elect". If, as the Bible says, that "God SO LOVED the world", that He sent His one and only Son to die for them, then how could God simply "pass by" the greater majority of His creation, by withholding the Gospel Message for their salvation, so that they are damned? How can it be honestly said that God "SO LOVED" these, as His own actions say the complete opposite, as some teach? Remember, we are not talking about temporary punishment for these, but their eternal state, in hell. God says on the one hand to the sinful human race, "I love you all VERY MUCH", but, sorry, this "love" as great as it is towards you, does not include all of you to enjoy the benefits of My Salvation, because the greater majority of you, though I LOVE VERY MUCH, I have, by My own predetermined actions, made sure that you will end up in eternal suffering. Since you people do not have a free will, as to choose whether to serve Me or not, I have determined this Myself, because I LOVE VERY MUCH, and this is My way of expressing my GREAT LOVE for you. This, basically is what "Predestination" is in the Reformed/Calvinistic system. Which I see Biblically as repulsive, both in God's and human eyes.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Typo, it should be John 3:16 in #73

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The lord has no need to determine to elect the lost to hell, as the result of the fall of Adam is that all of us were already headed down that pathway willingly. None of us on our owqn can get saved, so that is why he needed to "step in" and have His chosen ones to be saved out for Himslf now.

who sends the lost to hell, and exactly how do they end up there?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God actively chooses whom to condemn, but because he knows they will have a sinful nature, the way he foreordains them is to simply let them be – this is sometimes called "preterition." (Robert L. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998, page 345.)

Therefore, this foreordination to wrath is passive in nature, unlike God's active predestination of his elect where he overcomes their sinful nature.

What Reymond suggests here is complete unbiblical rubbish! The word "foreordains" requires an ACTION on the part of the person who is doing this foreordaining. "to simply let them be", is to do NOTHING, and therefore is NOT an action. These people don't even understand the English language! Reymond actually shows is lack of grasp of the language he uses, because he himself says, "God actively chooses whom to condemn", which is NOT "to simply let them be"

BTW, the ENTIRE human race has a sinful nature, not just the non-elect!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where exactly does it say in any of these passages you quote, that God is "glorified" in the death of the lost? Have you carefully read a much misused verse in Romans 9? Notice Paul's words, "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". If God either "predestined" these "vessels of wrath", or "gloried" in their "destruction", and this was His intention for them, then why would He "endure with MUCH (πολύς, abundant) longsuffering (μακροθυμία, patient enduring, forbearance)" with these who were damned? Rather, the language here clearly shows, like in the Book of Jonah, God's willingness for these "vessels of wrath", that they should "turn, and live.” (Ezekiel 18:32). Read the full verse in Ezekiel 18, and you will see the real heart of the Lord, "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”. Like Jonah and the wicked people of Nineveh, whom the Lord "so loved" (John 3:16), that He sent His Prophet to warn these sinners of the coming destruction, IF they continued in their evil ways. WHY would God even have bothered with these wicked people, who were not even part of the "elect", as they were non-Jews, and simply not "pass them by", as some teach about the "non-elect" in their understanding of Predestination? Reformed theology have greatly limited and thereby perverted the great love that God has for His own sinful creation!

Wait, did you post John 3:16? When I held to this mythical free will, John 3:16 was in EVERY bible I owned. But since I became a Calvinist, it is no longer in them. Can you post that verse and what it says? It's been so long since I read that verse, I forgot what it said.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Wait, did you post John 3:16? When I held to this mythical free will, John 3:16 was in EVERY bible I owned. But since I became a Calvinist, it is no longer in them. Can you post that verse and what it says? It's been so long since I read that verse, I forgot what it said.

If you simple click on the Bible reference, it will take you to the verse!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Wait, did you post John 3:16? When I held to this mythical free will, John 3:16 was in EVERY bible I owned. But since I became a Calvinist, it is no longer in them. Can you post that verse and what it says? It's been so long since I read that verse, I forgot what it said.

out of interest, how do you understand what Jesus says in this wonderful verse, that Martin Luther called "the Gospel in a nutshell"?

 

[steaver]

Adam is the only one who had the power to override God's sovereign will

Which "God" do you have in mind here? Surely not the God of the Holy Bible? Forget how "Calvinism" portrays God's Sovereignty, the Word of God, the Holy Bible is very clear that God IS always 100% Sovereign, and NO human has ever, or can ever "over-ride" this! What you are suggesting is blatant heresy.

I actually agree.

So, answer the question.

Was it God's sovereign will that Adam should choose life, or death?