Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

[Brother Bob]

I have to give it to you Brother Bob. You sure are trying hard! However this doesn't change the fact that the genre of the writing is prophetic vision, which means it didn't take place in the past in REALITY.

It was past tense in his VISION.

Come on Brother Bob this really is elementary

That is all you ever been taught and its hard to let it go isn't it?

J. Jump; Do you believe that no one is saved as of yet, but will be saved when Christ comes again?

So you say: The Kingdom of Christ is not yet in existence. It will not arrive until Jesus returns. Yet you say, He is your King.

Lets see, if you have a King, and you have subjects, don't that make up a Kingdom.


The Bible says...The Kingdom of God was established in Christ's day while He lived here on earth 2000 years ago. It is a spiritual Kingdom, not an earthly kingdom as millennialists try to teach. Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7, Mark 1:14-15, 9:1, Daniel 2:44, Joel 2:28-29

How many I got against me now?

What you gonna do in that thousand years, everyone else is dead?

 

[J. Jump]

That is all you ever been taught and its hard to let it go isn't it?

So now you are going to say that Revelation is not prophetic vision. Are you SERIOUS Brother Bob? I honestly can't believe this. Please tell me you are joking.

So you say: The Kingdom of Christ is not yet in existence. It will not arrive until Jesus returns.

No let me clear you up a little bit. The kingdom already exists. The kingdom is the earth. It is currently under the rulership of Satan. Christ is the Annointed King. However He has not assumed the throne yet. He was born King. But I think even you would have to admit He was not on the throne as a day old infant would you Brother Bob?

He will one day take rulership away from Satan and assume rulership over the earth.

Yet you say, He is your King.

Absolutely!

Lets see, if you have a King, and you have subjects, don't that make up a Kingdom.

Again the kingdom is the earth. Christ is the Annointed King, but He has not assumed the throne yet. He is currently acting as our High Priest. Yes one day He will return and take over rulership of the earth.

The Kingdom of God was established in Christ's day while He lived here on earth 2000 years ago.

You have no Biblical evidence that this is so. It is merely your unfounded opinion.

It is a spiritual Kingdom, not an earthly kingdom as millennialists try to teach.

I guess there probably are some millennialists that say the coming kingdom will only be physical, but that would be incorrect. However again there is a physical realm and there is a spiritual realm. The OT deals with the physical and the NT deals with the spiritual.

How many I got against me now?

Just One and that's all that matters!

What you gonna do in that thousand years, everyone else is dead?

Who said everyone else is dead?

 

[J. Jump]

J. Jump; Do you believe that no one is saved as of yet, but will be saved when Christ comes again?

Depends on what you mean by saved? If you mean eternally saved then yes everyone that has believed in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on their behalf a sinner is saved.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Lets see, if you have a King, and you have subjects, don't that make up a Kingdom.
Again the kingdom is the earth. Christ is the Annointed King, but He has not assumed the throne yet. He is currently acting as our High Priest. Yes one day He will return and take over rulership of the earth.

2Pe 3:10¶But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

He won't have anything to rule if its the earth.


J. Jump; you are Pre-Millennial, are you not? I thought they believed: The present gospel dispensation was not intended to convert the world to Christ. People will be saved after Jesus returns to earth...after the "tribulation" period.

 

[J. Jump]

Brother Bob is Revelation prophect vision or not?

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course it was a vision of the past, present and future.

J. Jump; is this what you believe is going to happen?
Christ will then set up His Kingdom on earth with His capital in the city of Jerusalem. The Jews will return to Palestine and restore the ancient sacrifices. Christ, along with His saints, will rule for 1000 years over a world-wide kingdom of righteousness

 

[J. Jump]

Just curious what you are going to do with these verses:

Revelation 2:26-27 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:

When has this taken place Brother Bob?

Revelation 19:15 - From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

When has Christ ruled the nations with a rod of iron Brother Bob? It can't be at the cross, because not even you can escape that this is clearly talking about the future. So at best it has to be sometime after 50 AD which is the earliest date that I am aware of that Revelation could have been written.

 

[J. Jump]

Of course it was a vision of the past, present and future.

You still didn't answer the question. Is it a PROPHETIC vision? To my knowledge you can not have a prophetic vision of the past or present.

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation 2:26-27 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:

When Christ died for our sins.

Revelation 19:15 - From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

The Lord again. sharp sword is the word of God, Also, He will rule with a rod of iron is you either follow the Lord and keep His Commandments or you will suffer His wrath.

He rules with a rod of Iron now and in the end. You either believe or suffer His wrath.

Prophetic, party of what is to come. Partly not Prophetic but tells of the past. Partly not Prophetic but tells what we must do now in the present time.


J. Jump; you are Pre-Millennial, are you not? I thought they believed: The present gospel dispensation was not intended to convert the world to Christ. People will be saved after Jesus returns to earth...after the "tribulation" period.

J. Jump; is this what you believe is going to happen?

Christ will then set up His Kingdom on earth with His capital in the city of Jerusalem. The Jews will return to Palestine and restore the ancient sacrifices. Christ, along with His saints, will rule for 1000 years over a world-wide kingdom of righteousness

 

[J. Jump]

When Christ died for our sins.

Surely you can do better than that can't you Brother Bob?

Revelation 2:26-27 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:

Here it is again. Who is the He that overcometh Brother Bob? Who is the He that keepth His works unto the end. When is the end?

When did this person receive the power to rule the nations with Christ? When have the nations been broken to shivers?

Also, He will rule with a rod of iron is you either follow the Lord and keep His Commandments or you will suffer His wrath.

So up until the time of the writing of Revelation that wasn't true?

He rules with a rod of Iron now and in the end. You either believe or suffer His wrath.

So the United States is currently suffering His wrath? How is that Brother Bob? How is Canada suffering His wrath. How about England? Austrailia?

 

[J. Jump]

. Jump; you are Pre-Millennial, are you not?

Yes I am.

I thought they believed:

The present gospel dispensation was not intended to convert the world to Christ. People will be saved after Jesus returns to earth...after the "tribulation" period.

I can only speak for myself. The gospel has always been the same. Everyone that has ever been eternally saved has been saved by God's grace through faith. I feel comfortable in saying that I think God would want everyone that has ever lived to be eternally saved.

Christ will return to earth and He will rule the nations with a rode of iron. And yes there will be people that survived the tribulation that will be saved by God's grace through faith during that 1000-year period. There will be children born during that time that will ultimately believe in God's grace through faith.

 

[Brother Bob]

Christ will return to earth and He will rule the nations with a rode of iron. And yes there will be people that survived the tribulation that will be saved by God's grace through faith during that 1000-year period. There will be children born during that time that will ultimately believe in God's grace through faith.

You making all this up J. Jump! You do not have scripture for this.


You didn't answer this. Is this thousand years going to take in to account Israel and ancient sacrifices?

J. Jump; is this what you believe is going to happen?

Christ will then set up His Kingdom on earth with His capital in the city of Jerusalem. The Jews will return to Palestine and restore the ancient sacrifices. Christ, along with His saints, will rule for 1000 years over a world-wide kingdom of righteousness

 

[J. Jump]

You making all this up J. Jump! You do not have scripture for this.

Give me a break Brother Bob. Deal with the Scripture that has already been presented to you that you can not explain away this time.

 

[gerald285]

In the last several years DR. Stanley has slid from his previous years of teachings. I heard him state that one did not have to repent to be saved a few years ago. I contacted the church and they told me that the part about no repentance would be edited out of the tape. Keep in mind that he is getting old and he has went through some serious marriage problems and a divorce.

As to can we live any old way after salvation the answer is no. We are not only kept from losing our salvation we are also kept from living in sin. The false doctrine of backsliding has clouded the scripture and has many people who claim to be saved and really think that they are saved deceived as they live in sin. Little wonder why the Lord said that MANY will say Lord! Lord!

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

After listening to Dr. Stanley recently on the subject of eternal securtiy, I got the impression that he is saying that once you have been saved, it doesn't matter how you live after, because you are eternally saved.

I thought it mattered how you live as a confirmation of your salvation (2 Pet.1:10,11). Did I misunderstand him?

 

[Brother Bob]

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

You should not add or take away from the scripture. I dealt with every thing you posted and you will not listen to reason.


Only the "souls that were beheaded for the word of God" lived and reigned for a thousand years. If you got scripture, please give it. You will not answer this:

1. J. Jump; is this what you believe is going to happen?

Christ will then set up His Kingdom on earth with His capital in the city of Jerusalem. The Jews will return to Palestine and restore the ancient sacrifices. Christ, along with His saints, will rule for 1000 years over a world-wide kingdom of righteousness

 

[Brother Bob]

Christ will return to earth and He will rule the nations with a rode of iron. And yes there will be people that survived the tribulation that will be saved by God's grace through faith during that 1000-year period. There will be children born during that time that will ultimately believe in God's grace through faith. You making all this up J. Jump! You do not have scripture for this.


You didn't answer this. Is this thousand years going to take in to account Israel and ancient sacrifices?

J. Jump; is this what you believe is going to happen?

Christ will then set up His Kingdom on earth with His capital in the city of Jerusalem. The Jews will return to Palestine and restore the ancient sacrifices. Christ, along with His saints, will rule for 1000 years over a world-wide kingdom of righteousness__________________

You just don't have scripture so you don't answer.

 

[Brother Bob]

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

"1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

second coming of Christ.

1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

superstition.

2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

(Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

primarily American theological phenomenon.

2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

I know not how true this account is of the thousand year reign, but have heard of Darby before as starting the Pre-millemium doctrine. If this doctrine didn't start until the ninetenth century, give me the Old Time Doctrine.
__________________
Brother Bob,

 

[EdSutton]

Aorist
Simple (or ‘Summary’) Occurrence
past​

Is this what you meant to say Ed?

Not at all. I said what I intended to say.

The problem with what you cite is not in what it says (nevermind you oversimplified what the link says), but what is not said, here. Here is something else from the very same websight you are referencing

For instance, outside of the indicative mood it is often customary to use the tense that implies a 'simple occurrence', the aorist tense. The aorist places no emphasis on the progress of the action, but only shows a simple occurrence (or summary occurrence), the action viewed as a whole. If the writer does not wish to emphasize or focus on the progress of the verb's action (whether continuous or completed) he will use the aorist tense. The term 'aorist' means 'unspecified' or 'unlimited'. It signifies nothing as to the progression or completeness of an action, it just indicates 'happenedness' or simple occurrence. If one has the mistaken concept that aorist tense means past time, many passages of the New Testament will be very confusing if not altogether nonsensical. (By Corey Keating at http://www.ntgreek.org/ )

Here is another excerpted quote that is applicable, as well. You may notice what I have highlighted, as well as the citing of the late Dr. A. T. Robertson, perhaps to this day unequalled as a Greek scholar among Baptists.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif] The aorist tense in its unaffected form is, in essence, punctiliar. The context of the aorist, as any Greek verb, determines the tense or how it is to be understood. It can be understood to mean past or future, depending on the context. A.T. Robertson, in his book, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, says "The caution must be once more repeated that in these subdivisions of the aorist indicative we have only one tense and one root-idea (punctiliar actions)" (p. 835). Later he says of the aorist tense, as it relates to events that occur in the future: "It is a vivid transference of the action to the future by the 'timeless aorist'" (p. 846). In other words, the aorist tense speaks to one particular issue that is timeless, the context clearly determining the tense of the action, as against the common belief of some who would make the aroist tense always a past completed action.[/FONT] (from http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0016.html )

This is also consistent with what J.Jump and I have posted regarding the time and future occurence.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed Sutton; are you a Pre-Millemiumist as J. Jump is?

This is also consistent with what J.Jump and I have posted regarding the time and future occurence.

Ed

Well, I can post just as many that disagrees with you and J. Jump! It is still just the "souls of the beheaded", regardless.

Is it true this doctrine didn't start until the ninetenth century by Darby?

Is it also true that this was considered as a heritic doctrine until Darby and some others started the Pre-Mil in the late eighteen and early ninetenth centuries?

Is it also true that John Calvin considered this to be a false doctrine?

 

[J. Jump]

Well, I can post just as many that disagrees with you and J. Jump!

Well by all means please post away on some Greek scholars that would disagree with A.T. Robertson. I would love to read those.

Is it true this doctrine didn't start until the ninetenth century by Darby?

No it is not true.

Is it also true that this was considered as a heritic doctrine until Darby and some others started the Pre-Mil in the late eighteen and early ninetenth centuries?

This question doesn't make a lot of sense. Your first question asks if his doctrine started with Darby and then this question says it was around before Darby as heretical until Darby did something with it.

I suppose the doctrine of the rapture has been considered heretical by some, but to claim something doesn't make it so. We can see evidence of this all of the BB.

Is it also true that John Calvin considered this to be a false doctrine?

Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me. He was a little off in some other areas too :laugh:.

I noticed that you still haven't dealt with the two Revelation texts I gave you. Are you going to do that?