Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

[Brother Bob]

Pardon me for butting in, but there is a spiritual Kingdom that all who trust in Christ are a part of, but there will be a millinnial Kingdom as well, which is the Kingdom that was promised to the Jews, but they rejected. God will keep His promise, but when the Jews rejected their Messiah, the Kingdom was not given to them. Instead God turned His attention to the gentiles and offered them the Kingdom (spiritual). But, the Jews will have their Kingdom as promised after the great tribulation when they will come to know that Christ is Messiah and that is what the 1000 year reign is about.

Amy; You say it is a spiritual Kingdom the Jews rejected and it was given unto the Gentiles. The Bible says that they can be grafted back in to this Kingdom. There is only one Kingdom, and the Jews made the mistake of thinking it was a natural Kingdom and rejected the Messiah.

These despensalist are the ones who say where some beheaded souls reigned is the Kingdom. They are wrong and making the same mistake of the Jews.

Got to go work on my boat, be back later. One thing about BB, it make you dig deep. I have found more material against the thousand year reign yet to come than I knew existed.

 

[J. Jump]

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


1Cr 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

None of these say the kingdom was established. The only one that would even HINT at something like that is your first one. However there is credible evidence that "within" you is a bad translation. And when Scripture is compared with Scripture we find out that that is exactly the case. The kingdom was not within them. The kingdom was in their midst.

Jesus must of not understood either.

Why do you even say such nonsense?

Again, He may not be your King, but He is mine.

And again why do you make such false accusation? I know you are having trouble getting your doctrine to stand up, but personal accusations that are clearly not true are not the way to go Brother Bob.

Let me just add that just because you claim Him as your King does not mean you understand what His Kingship is all about.

Scripture shows us that there are those that claim Jesus as Lord, but have no idea what that means.

You make the same mistake the Jews made looking for a natural Kingdom.

Again you show your lack of understanding of even what I'm talking about. The JEWS have been promised leadership over the physical kingdom of the earth. That WILL happen. I'm not looking forward to that, because I will have no part in that portion of the kingdom and neither with you. We are not JEWS.

You know if you are going to make accusations you should at least try to attempt to understand what is being discussed.

Question, How come there will only be a thousand years to the Kingdom, I thought there would be no end to it.

Again can you explain to me why you want answers to questions in which you aren't going to accept the answer anyway? But just to satisfy you the reason there will only be a thousand years associated with this rule is simply because God said so. That should be enough to satisfy any curiosity .

 

[Amy.G]

Got to go work on my boat, be back later. One thing about BB, it make you dig deep. I have found more material against the thousand year reign yet to come than I knew existed.

Your boat?? You dirty dog. I'd like to be on a boat right now!

I agree with you that there is so much to learn about end times and future events. I have heard so many interpretations I can't even count them. One thing I know for sure is that God knows it all and I am just a student. But I will trust in Him to take care of me before, during and after death. I know where my hope lies, even though I do not understand everything yet.

Have fun with your boat!

 

[EdSutton]

I see you are using the "tense" of the words, How about applying them to "lived" and "reigned"?

v. 6, is the rendering of the Greek verb "βασιλευω" that is here "βασιλευσουσιν", in the future tense. BTW, the same word, "βασιλευω" in v. 4, is a 1st aorist, formed from a future tense, as well. It is not a 'past tense', as has been previously claimed on this thread.

"[Sigh!]" ( Administrators, can we get a "sighing smilie" from somewhere for the BB?) I just did! Twice now. "ezosan" (lived) is the same tense as well.

The Kingdom of God was established in Christ's day while He lived here on earth 2000 years ago. It is a spiritual Kingdom, not an earthly kingdom as millennialists try to teach. Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7, Mark 1:14-15, 9:1, Daniel 2:44, Joel 2:28-29

I am one of them "millenialists" your mother probably warned you about, :laugh: :laugh: but I did not say that the Kingdom of God was not a spiritual kingdom, nor 'only' an earthly kingdom, either.

I cannot speak for any other in this, as to what they may or may not have said.

And "the Kingdom of God" did not start in Christ's day, for that matter, but is an eternal kingdom, from eternity to eternity. (Ps. 103:19) One facet of this eternal kingdom is "the Kingdom of the heavens" spoken of only in Matthew (Matt. 5); another facet is "the kingdom of Christ" (Eph. 5:5), which I believe to be synonomous with the church, the body of Christ, that was established by Christ; Israel, under both the "promise" and "law" is part of the Kingdom of God, as well (Isa. 9:7); there is yet a kingdom to be established that has to do with Israel (Dan.2:44); there is a kingdom not of this world (John 18:36); etc., etc..

One facet of the eternal "kingdom of God" does not cancel out, or necessarily trump another facet. But each has its own context, meaning and sphere, and we must consider this, I would say.

Gotta' run to a Doctor's appointment. Have fun, all! :laugh:

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

There is only one Kingdom, and the Jews made the mistake of thinking it was a natural Kingdom and rejected the Messiah.

Brother Bob are you a covenant theologian?

There is only one kingdom in view and that is the earth. However there are two realms to rulership over the earth. There is a physical realm and there is a spiritual realm.

have found more material against the thousand year reign yet to come than I knew existed.

Really? Why are you hiding it? You haven't shown an ounce of evidence to date.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


1Cr 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
None of these say the kingdom was established. The only one that would even HINT at something like that is your first one. However there is credible evidence that "within" you is a bad translation. And when Scripture is compared with Scripture we find out that that is exactly the case. The kingdom was not within them. The kingdom was in their midst.

You are looking at it with a closed mind. You are as the Jews still looking for the Messiah and Kingdom.

Quote:
Again, He may not be your King, but He is mine.
And again why do you make such false accusation? I know you are having trouble getting your doctrine to stand up, but personal accusations that are clearly not true are not the way to go Brother Bob.

Because you say His Kingdom is not yet established. I would make remarks like this also, if I could not show any bodies in a resurrection.

You make the same mistake the Jews made looking for a natural Kingdom. Again you show your lack of understanding of even what I'm talking about. The JEWS have been promised leadership over the physical kingdom of the earth. That WILL happen. I'm not looking forward to that, because I will have no part in that portion of the kingdom and neither with you. We are not JEWS.

I was sure that the Lord took it from them and gave to the Gentiles.

Quote:
Question, How come there will only be a thousand years to the Kingdom, I thought there would be no end to it.
Again can you explain to me why you want answers to questions in which you aren't going to accept the answer anyway? But just to satisfy you the reason there will only be a thousand years associated with this rule is simply because God said so. That should be enough to satisfy any curiosity .

It makes no sense, why would the Lord establish another Kingdom for only a thousand years where they do nothing but sit on thrones, no one else there until the rest of the dead live again. If He is supposed to give the Jews a Kingdom, can you show where this Kingdom is only going to last a thousand years.

have found more material against the thousand year reign yet to come than I knew existed. Really? Why are you hiding it? You haven't shown an ounce of evidence to date.
__________________

J. Jump; None of you can show the thousand year reign to be no more than beheaded souls. You can not show even Jesus being a part of the First Resurrection, for you say He come down from Heaven for this reign. You whole theory is blown out of the water.
Show me where there are bodies in this reign?
Show me where Christ is a part of this "live again", which has to be in order to be firstfruits of them that slept that arose.

 

[Amy.G]

One facet of the eternal "kingdom of God" does not cancel out, or necessarily trump another facet. But each has its own context, meaning and sphere, and we must consider this, I would say.

Precisely.

Have fun at the Dr.! :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

"[Sigh!]" ( Administrators, can we get a "sighing smilie" from somewhere for the BB?) I just did! Twice now. "ezosan" (lived) is the same tense as well.

Not the word used in Rev 20!

there is yet a kingdom to be established that has to do with Israel (Dan.2:44); there is a kingdom not of this world (John 18:36); etc., etc

They rejected it Ed. Sure glad you agree the Kingdom already exists. As Jesus said "The Kingdom is within you". It consists of His Church.

How many Kingdoms are they yet to come and how we going to know which one to get in?
J.Jump is working towards getting into the thousand year reign Kingdom, which ones are the rest working to get into?

How many are working to get into this thousand year Kingdom?
How many are working to get into a Kingdom for Israel?

You better already be in one!!

 

[J. Jump]

You are looking at it with a closed mind.

At this point I needed a good chuckle :laugh: thank you. Because you mind is as wide open as the Midwest plains, eh Brother Bob? Come on.

You are as the Jews still looking for the Messiah and Kingdom.

Absolutely I am looking for the Messiah to return and establish His kingdom. You think human history is going to continue without end Brother Bob? Oh wait no that's not what you believe. You have already said that the Lord was going to return, so it looks like even you are looking for the return of the Messiah. You unfortunately don't realize what the Messiah's intentions are when He returns entirely.

Because you say His Kingdom is not yet established. I would make remarks like this also, if I could not show any bodies in a resurrection.

You personally attack someone and whether or not they claim the Kingship of Christ and you are called on it and this is all you can say? Shame on you! Personal insults do nothing to advance your cause!

You can claim all you want to that I don't understand something, but you have NO RIGHT to say whether or not I claim Christ as the Christ.

I was sure that the Lord took it from them and gave to the Gentiles.

The physical kingdom was not taken from Israel. It is promised to Israel. If it was taken from them then God would be a liar. Is that possible Brother Bob? Of course it's not. Israel will rule the earth from the phyiscal earth. They will be at the head of the nations one day. It will happen.

It makes no sense,

Well you have certainly proven that you don't understand what is being talked about. However, just because you lack understanding and it "makes no sense," to you does not make it untrue. Take a gander at the signature on my posts . I love it.

None of you can show the thousand year reign to be no more than beheaded souls.

Again simply a false accusation on your part. The problem is Brother Bob you are so closed minded yourself that you can't even get the fact that a prophetic vision is future and are so hung up on two words that you can't see the Truth. And no I have not gone very far, because it is pointless. Until you can admit there is going to be a kingdom that has not been established at this point there is no need to go further. It would be a waste of time. But your false accusations continue anyway.

These are the times when I don't like visiting with you very much. Because when you stray away from Scriptures you go straight for false accusations and personal insluts. You have been called on it before, yet you continue to go back to them.

If you want to do with Scripture then let's start with Revelation 20. Your "theory" has been refuted by three people now yet you still hold on to it. Again please answer the question that you have avoided. How can you hold on to a view that simply can not be supported by the text?

Forget all my beliefs how can you say something has already happened when the text does not support it? Can you show many any other Scripture where raised souls as you put it have reigned with Christ? And then can you show me how even though the Greek text says they aren't past tense they really are? What grammatical support do you have for this?

 

[Amy.G]

Bro. Bob, I will admit that I believe in dispensations. Can we still be friends? I do not believe that the church replaced Israel. I interpret scripture to mean that the promises that God made to Israel will be fulfilled in the future. It is all part of God's plan for the overall redemption of mankind, not just the Jews.

 

[EdSutton]

Not the word used in Rev 20!

Yes, I will admit to making a typographical error in typing the word. I should have typed "ezEsan" (εζησαν), not "ezosan". The root word is "ζαω" or "zaO". The 'endings' in the Greek language tell us that this use is the third person plural, first aorist tense, active voice, indicative mood.

Strong's (or Young's) concordance does not give any of these details, FTR. If either did give all the details, in the Hebrew and Greek, on each and every word, as a good lexicon and grammars do, the book would weigh 30 pounds. It is heavy enough, as it it.

"[Sigh!]", again.

Ed

 

[John R]

Someone got it right!

Sadly, many assemblies and individuals teach it as such.

They correctly teach that once you are saved, you are saved, without any possibility of losing that no matter what. This is correct.

But, they fall short in that they fail to teach that there is still accountability. We still have to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ and account for our works in the flesh, and that we may be rewarded, suffer loss, or even suffer chastisement.

I haven't been on this board long. But I find it hard to believe that all who name the name of Christ as their Lord, take so many rabbit trails on what the Bible tells us. I'm sure of what belongs to Christ (paid for by his blood) namely us; Is his forever and nothing can change that fact. When we except Christ we become a new being, from then until we are called home the work of the Holy Sprit is to change us into the image of Christ. We can follow his leading or not but we are still saved! And Yes Brothers and Sisters we will answer for what be do while we are here! Prayed for anyone today?

 

[SBCPreacher]

I haven't been on this board long. But I find it hard to believe that all who name the name of Christ as their Lord, take so many rabbit trails on what the Bible tells us. I'm sure of what belongs to Christ (paid for by his blood) namely us; Is his forever and nothing can change that fact. When we except Christ we become a new being, from then until we are called home the work of the Holy Sprit is to change us into the image of Christ. We can follow his leading or not but we are still saved! And Yes Brothers and Sisters we will answer for what be do while we are here! Prayed for anyone today?

John R,

Welcome.

I, too, find it amazing that so many can take the clear teaching of the Bible and bend it so far out of shape. But, that seems to be the nature of the BB.

Fasten your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!

 

[J. Jump]

I, too, find it amazing that so many can take the clear teaching of the Bible and bend it so far out of shape.

Yes we read all kinds of things here on the BB, but it really shouldn't surprise us how haywrire things have gone since we are in the last moments of human history.

 

[Amy.G]

I haven't been on this board long. But I find it hard to believe that all who name the name of Christ as their Lord, take so many rabbit trails on what the Bible tells us. I'm sure of what belongs to Christ (paid for by his blood) namely us; Is his forever and nothing can change that fact. When we except Christ we become a new being, from then until we are called home the work of the Holy Sprit is to change us into the image of Christ. We can follow his leading or not but we are still saved! And Yes Brothers and Sisters we will answer for what be do while we are here! Prayed for anyone today?

John, do you believe that some born again Christians will spend 1000 years in hell? (lake of fire)

 

[Brother Bob]

"ezEsan" (εζησαν), not "ezosan". The root word is "ζαω" or "zaO". The 'endings' in the Greek language tell us that this use is the third person plural, first aorist tense,

Aorist
Simple (or ‘Summary’) Occurrence
past​

Is this what you meant to say Ed?

 

[Hope of Glory]

John, do you believe that some born again Christians will spend 1000 years in hell? (lake of fire)

Are you asking him about hell or about the lake of fire?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Aorist
Simple (or ‘Summary’) Occurrence
past​

Is this what you meant to say Ed?

Aorist is not always past.

Welcome, John R.

Be prepared to be labeled a heretic by a few members who hold that as their primary debating tool.

 

[Brother Bob]

[Amy; Yes we still friends, but scripture says it is much easier to graft Israel back in to where we are at, than a wild olive branch.

Who is looking for a Kingdom for Israel?
Who is looking for a Kingdom for thousand years of beheaded souls?
Who is still looking for the Kingdom of Christ?
Who believes as Jesus said, the Kingdom is within us?

Call it false all you want, but the first one had not shown anything in the 1000 year reign but the souls of the beheaded.

HoG; Aorist is not always past

Why you change the meaning of the words when it suits your case? Does the truth hurt?

Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

 

[J. Jump]

Aorist
Simple (or ‘Summary’) Occurrence
past​

Is this what you meant to say Ed?

I have to give it to you Brother Bob. You sure are trying hard! However this doesn't change the fact that the genre of the writing is prophetic vision, which means it didn't take place in the past in REALITY.

It was past tense in his VISION.

Come on Brother Bob this really is elementary.