Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

[Brother Bob]

Maybe this quote from Dana and Mantey Grammar might prove helpful to this discussion:

"The distinctive function of the verb is to express action. Action as presented in the expression of a verbal idea involves tow elements, time of action and kind of action. That is, the action may be described as occurring at a certain time, and must be described, if intelligible, as performed in a certain manner. Tense deals with these two aspects of verbal expression, kind of action being the chief idea involved, for time is but a minor consideration in the Greek tenses. (167)... The important element of tense in Greek is kind of action. (169).
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I take this to mean that "lived" mean when ever it was they lived. and "reigned" means when ever it was they reigned. There is words of "live" and "reign", they added the "ed" for a reason. There are other problems with the thousand year reign thou, there is the fact that the only ones there were the "souls of them that were beheaded" for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
You should at least figure out why it is one way in all the other scriptures and then this one its future, according to you.
Let's try this and see if it works:

prophecy: the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.

How would that help. The whole Bible is prophecy!!! Jeepers

that whatsoever a man soweth, so shall he reap. I'm not sure why you would tie this in with the black horse, but Paul taught this very Truth and yes it is Truth and I wholeheartedly believe that a man will reap what he sows. If he sows to the flesh he will reap corruption. And if he sows to the Spirit he will reap life.

You can't tie in the scales with whatso ever a man soweth?

I also see that you don't care if you hit a raw nerve, even though you can't prove you theology, Brother Bob I can't say that I like that your nerve has been hit, but I can't control you. Again Truth hurts sometimes. And I will not apologize for speaking Truth. I'm not sure why showing concern for your well being and your congregation should it a nerve, but I understand why it has more than likely.

If God had entrusted a number of souls to me I would certainly want someone to point out the errors of my ways if they found me in error.

As to proving whether or not it is true well you can think that if you like, but it doesn't make it so. Truth is true whether you believe it or not. It doesn't change.

I do like you Brother Bob. That's why I talk to you a lot. I am truly concerned for you, but I guess you don't believe that either. :tear:

Just be prepared for responses.

 

[J. Jump]

The whole Bible is prophecy!!!

Come on Brother Bob you can't be serious.

 

[J. Jump]

There is words of "live" and "reign", they added the "ed" for a reason.

And that reason has been explained to you several times now.

John received a prophetic vision. This vision was given in a chronological order. When he was told about one event he was then shown the next event.

The -ed was added, not because the event had actually taken place in real live human history, but the event had occured in the chronology of his vision.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why do you think they were called Prophets??

John received a prophetic vision. This vision was given in a chronological order

That is false also.
If in chronological order, then how come in Rev. 10:1 that "time shall end". How can there be a thousand years over in Rev. 20: ????

Rev 10:1¶And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Rev 10:6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

You admitted, that you could not prove whether the bodies would be there or not. Yet you want to teach something you can't prove yourself. I am starting to worry about your congregation if you have one, you never told me. I don't know if you are a preacher, are you?

Bedtime :sleeping_2: :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

Skypair;
What about many of the bodies of the saints arose after His resurrection and went into that Holy City?

J.Vernon McGee offers this: They are some who received the Holy Spirit during Jesus ministry and died before the cross. It is JV's contention that Jesus offered the indwelling Spirit even to the disciples but they would not receive it until after He died, John 20.

This would make sense so far as a rapture of the firstfruits. They would have disappeared with Him when Christ Himself arose.

Also, what about the hour that Jesus spoke of, that all in the grave shall come forth?

The "last day," right? The last 1000 years. Up front, the rapture and resurrection of just/first resurrection. At the end, the second resurrection. That's how I understand it.

I would like to ask you both a question, and base it all on the whole world fearing God.

1. In the end of time there will be earthquakes, darkness, and all will confess Jesus.

2. Now if you agree with number 1, has there ever been a time like that before?

There will be similar to #1 several times within the tribulation alone: 1) 6th seal, 2) 4th trump, 3) 6th vial, 4) return of Christ. #2 was localized at Christ's death. In few of these do we see Christ confessed -- 6th seal and return of Christ. I certainly don't see "all" at the cross confessing Him, do you??

Why did Jesus say this:

Hbr 12:26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

I believe He's speaking of the reformatin of the earth into the New Earth and Heavens.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

You admitted, that you could not prove whether the bodies would be there or not.

Now you are just spreading falsities. Please stop. Please go back and read what I said about proving and stay in context. I can't prove anything and neither can you. Truth is not to be proven, but proclaimed. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict and convince not mine.

So please quit trying to twist my words and make them say somthing they do not. You are better than that.

And it's not that enough evidence hasn't been given, it's just that you don't want to see the evidence for what it is, and there's nothing I can do for that.

I think our conversation at this point has become useless.

Let me just leave you with something to ponder. If you and others are right and all saved people get to spend eternity in heaven then I have nothing to worry about. Yeah maybe my plot of heaven might not be as big as yours, but big deal it will be heaven. And we'll walk the street of gold together and live happily ever after for ever and ever.

However if I and others that believe like me are in fact right then not only do you, but all of those people you have been entrusted are going to miss out on 1000 years of what God had in store for you. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness.

So think you owe it to yourself and certainly to your congregation to take a harder more open minded look at the things we have discussed and they go way beyond what we have even discussed here. But whether you do or not is completely up to you. But it's just something to think about.

 

[skypair]

4. What does the thousand year reign have to do with our salvation?

Hymeneaous and Philetus (2Tim) made shipwreck of their and others faith by teaching the resurrection had already come (one facet you seem to believe). Does that answer your question?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

.Vernon McGee offers this: They are some who received the Holy Spirit during Jesus ministry and died before the cross. It is JV's contention that Jesus offered the indwelling Spirit even to the disciples but they would not receive it until after He died, John 20.

This would make sense so far as a rapture of the firstfruits. They would have disappeared with Him when Christ Himself arose.

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

4. What does the thousand year reign have to do with our salvation?

Hymeneaous and Philetus (2Tim) made shipwreck of their and others faith by teaching the resurrection had already come (one facet you seem to believe). Does that answer your question?

skypair

This is a far cry from what I teach and surely you know that.

No, I do not teach that the resurrection of all that are in the grave have come forth. What I do teach is Jesus resurrected already, and many of the bodies of the saints resurrected with Him and went into that Holy City.

I teach that Christ is the First Resurrection.

There will be similar to #1 several times within the tribulation alone: 1) 6th seal, 2) 4th trump, 3) 6th vial, 4) return of Christ. #2 was localized at Christ's death. In few of these do we see Christ confessed -- 6th seal and return of Christ. I certainly don't see "all" at the cross confessing Him, do you??

For a period of time there while Jesus was on the cross, if the whole world was dark and quakeing. I suspect there was a fear on all men. If this were to happen today all over the earth, do you think men would have the fear of God in them.
51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

I believe He's speaking of the reformatin of the earth into the New Earth and Heavens.

Can you support this with scripture? What about this???

2Pe 3:10¶But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Hymeneaous and Philetus (2Tim) made shipwreck of their and others faith by teaching the resurrection had already come (one facet you seem to believe). Does that answer your question?

skypair

2Ti 2:12If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

This is a far cry from what I teach and surely you know that.

You will admit that Christ is already risen and will not be resurrecting again, I am sure. Also, if you study Matt closely, you will see that many of the bodies that slept, arose after His resurrection and went into that Holy City. If all this is true that I have just quoted, then if thats not a resurrection, I don't know what one is.

Matt:

51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Do you believe this?? I really wonder how everyone can just "brush off" this great happening, that Jesus gave us an account of???

 

[Brother Bob]

Skypair;
The person who said that McGee was a false teacher, also taught the following. I do not think I care for the person making the accusations against McGee. As far as McGee, I don't know the man, nor have I studied him. I read what he said about suicide and I tend to agree with him, who am I to judge if such a person is condemned to hell, he is in the hands of God. The brain is an organ the same as the heart and it can detoriate. I have visited nursing home many years and heard old Christians cursing and doing things they would not do in their right mind. Did I condemn them, absolutely not, its not my Job!!

By: a true church, P. O. Box 797, Lake Hughes, CA 93532-0797 (not my words, theirs)
If you are involved with the kind of Christianity that views the "church of Christ", or Billy Graham, or Rick Warren, or Joel Osteen, or James Dobson, or Pat Robertson, or John MacArthur, or Tony Evans, or Greg Laurie, or Charles Stanley, or Chuck Smith, or Fred Price, or J. Vernon McGee, or Charles Blake, or Chuck Swindoll, or Gene Scott, or Harold Camping (Family Radio), or John Piper, or T. D. Jakes, or David Jeremiah, or Charles Spurgeon, or Dave Hunt, or David W. Cloud, or Perry F Rockwood, or Neil Anderson, or Robert Schuller, or Jack Hayford, or Benny Hinn, or Miles McPherson, or Ray Comfort, or Jim Cobrae, or Chuck Colson, or C. S. Lewis, or Pope John Paul, or Hank Hanegraaff, or Paul Chappell, or any of the like (or any of the likes on "Christian" TV or radio) as godly men, you are not saved. Why? Because, you are on the broad way (Matthew 7:13; 2 Peter 2:2; 2 Timothy 4:3). You have not the characteristic of Christ's sheep (John 10:5). And, men such as these are wells without water (2 Peter 2:17).

 

[Brother Bob]

J. Jump;
However if I and others that believe like me are in fact right then not only do you, but all of those people you have been entrusted are going to miss out on 1000 years of what God had in store for you. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness.

Do you honestly believe that the saved is going there? I sure do not.

 

[J. Jump]

Do you honestly believe that the saved is going there? I sure do not.

Scripture teaches that there are saved individuals that will end up in outer darkness, so yes I believe it.

 

[Amy.G]

[/B]
Scripture teaches that there are saved individuals that will end up in outer darkness, so yes I believe it.

Please post that scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

Please post that scripture.

Sure. Matthew 22:1-14 and Matthew 25:14-30

 

[TCGreek]

Sure. Matthew 22:1-14 and Matthew 25:14-30

And what part of those passages teach such doctrine? How have you exegeted these passages to arrive at such a position? Please, educate us!

 

[J. Jump]

And what part of those passages teach such doctrine?

Try the part that says outter darkness

Please, educate us!

Come now you know you already have the answers, so why don't you educate us as to how it's not teaching that.

 

[Amy.G]

The one without the wedding garment did not have the righteousness of Christ and therefore was cast out, as will happen to anyone who does not believe. Only unbelievers are cast into outer darkness.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The one without the wedding garment did not have the righteousness of Christ and therefore was cast out, as will happen to anyone who does not believe. Only unbelievers are cast into outer darkness.

There are no unbelievers being addressed here (Matthew 22:1-14 and Matthew 25:14-30) in any way. The context is conclusive that this is a message exclusively addressed to believers. There is no line item veto here.

lacy

 

[Brother Bob]

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

 

[Amy.G]

There are no unbelievers being addressed here (Matthew 22:1-14 and Matthew 25:14-30) in any way. The context is conclusive that this is a message exclusively addressed to believers. There is no line item veto here.

lacy

Actually, these passages were addressed to Israel. They are talking about the Kingdom being taken from the Jews and offered to the Gentiles because of an unbelieving Israel.

If one is not clothed in the righteousness of Christ (wedding garment) they are NOT saved.