Drinking: Can You Really Handle It?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And? Yes, it WOULD be just fine for them to drink in moderation too ... /// ... I love her enough to have a seltzer with lime instead.

Where's that elusive "like" button? :thumbsup:

 

[JamesL]

.... That indication would be any behavior that has us talking to ourselves about whether to have a drink, or another drink. If we have to debate ourselves, then we shouldn't be doing it, because that "debate" is actually our excuse mechanism kicking in to justify having a drink that we shouldn't have.

Gambling? No way I even stand next to the lottery display at Quik Trip. That's my downfall.)[/I]

I'm somewhat the same. I quit drinking before I was a believer, because I started going to a legalistic church, and thought Christianity was a behavioral system, and I was doing everything right in order to save myself. I renounced gambling, too. But that one has reared its ugly head a few times, for extended periods.

For me, it wasn't as much the gamble itself, but the mentality of trying to get something for nothing, and a lack of trust in God to provide

 

[salzer mtn]

And? Yes, it WOULD be just fine for them to drink in moderation too - unless they are predisposed to alcoholism or have a medical condition where alcohol is contraindicated. Honestly, I've not found many people who say "Oh great! My pastor has a glass of wine on special occasions so I can go get drunk as much as I want!!" The most we've had when we did drink was for people to come up and say "I thought Christians aren't allowed to drink." What a perfect opportunity to teach them the truth of what Scripture says. It really opened up good discussions about God, the Word of God and alcohol the few times it was an issue (and like I said, not even an issue but a point of discussion).



I've actually experienced the complete opposite here in NY. Everyone we've spoken to has thought Christianity was all "thou shall not have any more fun in life once you become a Christian" and they see that we're normal people, have a drink on occasion (in the past - remember, we don't drink now because that is a requirement of our church), laugh, dance and even get a little silly.
.

I retired from the state as being in corrections, and in the prison system the convicts are aloud to go to church meeting of volunteer ministers of different denominations. The Catholics seem to always draw the biggest crowds and once I ask a convict why he went to the Catholic services, his reply was the Catholic priest was aloud to bring wine in for the drinking of the blood of the savior and we get to participate.

 

[annsni]

I retired from the state as being in corrections, and in the prison system the convicts are aloud to go to church meeting of volunteer ministers of different denominations. The Catholics seem to always draw the biggest crowds and once I ask a convict why he went to the Catholic services, his reply was the Catholic priest was aloud to bring wine in for the drinking of the blood of the savior and we get to participate.

LOL - Hey, if that's what it takes to get them to hear the Gospel, I'd go for wine too!! It's just in the little cups anyway - only about a 1/2 oz.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

LOL - Hey, if that's what it takes to get them to hear the Gospel, I'd go for wine too!! It's just in the little cups anyway - only about a 1/2 oz.

It was a Catholic service. There was no Gospel.

 

[JamesL]

In the first place, I was simply making an exegetical point, using my Greek experience to try to help folks understand the Word a little more. In the second place, I've done these alcohol threads before, and really don't feel like taking the abuse again from drinkers (not that you are that way--don't really know you--but see EWF's post#43 already). In the third place, if I were going to make a point about the issue, I certainly wouldn't use the Corinthian church, possibly the worst one Paul wrote to. :type:

I'm not looking to abuse anybody. But you did engage in the thread, so I thought you were ok with a discussion.

I was asking from an exegetic standpoint how you view the cup, since that's the angle from which you approached Acts 2.

And I thought the Corinthian church was perfect, since there were so many problems. Paul addressed them concerning meats offered to idols, I just figured if there was a problem with alcohol in and of itself, he would specifically address it.

Thoughts?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

But that doesn't make your view any more credible?

Perhaps such a post just shows how entrenched in deceit one may be.

Or perhaps it reflects the disdain we have for legalists who insist the Bible forbids drinking, but can't produce any proof to that effect.

What is the very definition of deceit or being deceived?

There are many words used in the Old Testament that are translated as "deceit." None of them are closely related. In Genesis 3:3, when Eve says she was deceived, the word is nashah which means "to act as a creditor." In Genesis 29:25, Laban accuses Jacob of rashah which means to hurl or throw, or to cast a scheme. In Psalm 78:36, when Israel is said to have attempted to deceive God Himself, the word is pathah, meaning to be open wide. Which sets up the answer for this question:

Is the one deceived aware until the deceit is accomplished?

That is actually irrelevant, because none of these words translates as "mocker."

"Wine is a mocker" - that is fact - just as true as "God is love."

True, but it has nothing to do with deceit. What does that verse really mean? First of all, the Hebrew word is liyliyth. That is the name of an Edomite demon said to prowl dark, desolate places. What is the significance there, then? Don't go to dark, desolate places. That's obvious. But is it condemnation of simply drinking, or as the latter half of the verse states, is it warning against consuming too much wine, an easily understood concept of a "dark, desolate place"?

Proverbs 20, (NASB)
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.​

Does it say, "Whoever drinks it is not wise"? Or does it say, "And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise"? The word translated "intoxicated" is the Hebrew shagah, which means "drunkenness" or "to lead astray." Obviously one doesn't have to drink to be "lead astray" into a "dark, desolate place." But one does have to drink to be drunk. And, one can drink and not be drunk or be lead astray. So your argument fails.

If one accepts the later as factual, they remain inconsistent by not accepting the first as factual.

But your and others are not accepting the factual, you're making the "factual" up as you go along. You want wine to be forbidden, so you stretch the verse to make it so. That's not good biblical scholarship. Wine is like anger. It can be used without abuse, it can be consumed righteously without sin. You cannot produce Bible verses showing otherwise.

The goal of the enemy is to deceive. One is not wise if they are deceived.

That is Scriptural principle.

Be very, very careful with that overgeneralization, as you are in the area of bearing false witness here.

That some make all manner of excuse and look for "permission" is just further evidence of the power of deceit.

And some look for an excuse to condemn others because they would not do what they see their brother or sister in Christ do and irrationally believe their behavior is righteous whereas the behavior they observe is not. Why don't you address the issue of Jesus drinking alcohol instead of giving us your opinion? Regardless of whatever excuse you may attempt to post, Jesus drank intoxicating beverage. Live with it. It is biblical truth.

That apart, there are several food stuffs which we consume regulary that have health implications. For instance consumption of red meat and eggs (cholesterol) can lead to heart attack and the consumption of sugar can lead to diabetes. Why do you not condemn them with the intensity and frequency you condemn drinking?

In all these things, the key word is moderation. Moderation is wise thinking, without deceit. It is hypocritical to single out alcohol. If you choose not to drink for what ever reason, that's not a problem. Bear in mind, however, it as no basis in Christianity, as the founder of the faith used to drink and share it with His disciples and tax collectors. Please note that you are bearing false witness when you say a good Christian should not drink. It is your opinion, unsupportable from biblical truth, and those Scriptures you attempt to show as proof texts are nothing more than you the Word to support your views.

 

[Zaac]

I don't think handling it is what's important. I think giving the world the impression that Christians use alcohol in much the same way that the lost do as an answer is a far bigger issue.

Does seeing a Christian drinking give the appearance of evil?

I think about Elvis. Chris Farley. Michael Jackson.Cory Monteith. John Belushi. Michael Hutchence. Whiney Houston. Amy Winehouse. River Phoenix. Heath Ledger. Marilyn Monroe. Brittany Murphy. Just to name a few.

And then you've got your athletes and movie stars who regularly get so drugged up that they can't remember their own names.

Is that what God's people want to give the appearance of being?

 

[InTheLight]

I don't think handling it is what's important. I think giving the world the impression that Christians use alcohol in much the same way that the lost do as an answer is a far bigger issue.

I don't "use" alcohol any more than I use a potato. I drink things that contain alcohol. I eat things that contain potatoes. "Users" are addicts.

Does seeing a Christian drinking give the appearance of evil?

No. As Ann said, some people think Christians are strange if they are teetotalers. I've had a couple of people in the past few years ask me where I went to church and when I answered _____ Baptist Church, they IMMEDIATELY said, "so you can't drink anything".

Is that what God's people want to give the appearance of being?

I don't think that if a person sees me drinking a beer they immediately think I'm a raging, out of control drunk who will die a cruel, premature death.

 

[Zaac]

No. As Ann said, some people think Christians are strange if they are teetotalers. I've had a couple of people in the past few years ask me where I went to church and when I answered _____ Baptist Church, they IMMEDIATELY said, "so you can't drink anything".

I would tend to disagree with this because by far, I think we see in the media and around the world the Catholic Church put forth as the face of Christianity. And so many folks associate that with Irish Catholic and getting wasted.

Devoutness simply isn't associated with alcohol consumption. But I say again, why would we give the impression that like with Philip Seymour Hoffman and those who have died from mind altering drugs that we're okay with it by using an equally addictive and destructive drug?

I don't think that if a person sees me drinking a beer they immediately think I'm a raging, out of control drunk who will die a cruel, premature death.

Not necessarily. But I think a lot of folks do associate alcohol use with drug abuse.

 

[InTheLight]

I would tend to disagree with this because by far, I think we see in the media and around the world the Catholic Church put forth as the face of Christianity. And so many folks associate that with Irish Catholic and getting wasted.

What does this have to do with my experience that when I tell people I attend a Baptist church they immediately assume I can't drink?

Devoutness simply isn't associated with alcohol consumption. But I say again, why would we give the impression that like with Philip Seymour Hoffman and those who have died from mind altering drugs that we're okay with it by using an equally addictive and destructive drug?

Really? Alcohol is an equally addictive and destructive drug as HEROIN? This is the sort of ignorant statements that really disappoints me with Christians and their rabid anti-drinking stances.

Not necessarily. But I think a lot of folks do associate alcohol use with drug abuse.

You would be in error in that type of thinking.

 

[Baptist Believer]

But I think a lot of folks do associate alcohol use with drug abuse.

A lot of people associate being a Christian with hating homosexuals, but that doesn't mean it is true.

The way you change the false association is to model moderation. Almost all of my alcohol consumption (almost always wine) is done in the company of other Christians from my church. We may have unchurched people with us, but it is understood that we drink in moderation and immoderate drinking is not allowed.

 

[Zaac]

What does this have to do with my experience that when I tell people I attend a Baptist church they immediately assume I can't drink?

I was just saying that contrary to your experience, I don't believe that's what the current view is when it comes to Christians and drinking. we are very good at letting the world know that we like to drink as much as they do.

Really? Alcohol is an equally addictive and destructive drug as HEROIN? This is the sort of ignorant statements that really disappoints me with Christians and their rabid anti-drinking stances.

But heroin use is exploding. Between 2007 and 2012, the number of Americans shooting up nearly doubled, from 373,000 to 669,000. According to Mark Kleiman, professor of public policy at UCLA’s Luskin School of Public Affairs, that estimate may be low. Many heroin users are incarcerated, homeless, or not in a place where surveys can find them.

Read more: Baby Shroomers and the Heroin Spike: 6 Surprising Trends in Americans’ Drug Use | TIME.com http://nation.time.com/2013/09/06/b...g-trends-in-americans-drug-use/#ixzz2sIHuh0tI

In the United States, nearly 14 million adults, or every one in 13 adults, abuse alcohol or have an alcoholism problem.
http://www.projectknow.com/research/drug-addiction-statistics-alcoholism-statistics/

You're right alcohol is much more addictive and much more heavily abused according to the statistics I'm finding.

You would be in error in that type of thinking.

And I would disagree.

 

[InTheLight]

I was just saying that contrary to your experience, I don't believe that's what the current view is when it comes to Christians and drinking. we are very good at letting the world know that we like to drink as much as they do.

Ah, OK. Understood. But I believe the general public can differentiate between the Catholic stance on drinking and the Baptist stance on drinking.

You're right alcohol is much more addictive and much more heavily abused according to the statistics I'm finding.

I would dispute that alcohol is "much more addictive". You are citing statistics on the number of consumers of alcohol vs. the number of users of heroin, which is misleading because alcohol is legal and heroin is illegal.

Heroin is much more physically addictive than alcohol. What is the percent of heroin users that will have withdrawal symptoms vs. the number of drinkers that will have withdrawal symptoms? That is a truer gauge of addiction (though in itself is not the classic definition).

 

[Zaac]

A lot of people associate being a Christian with hating homosexuals, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Based on this board and what I hear coming out of a lot of churches, I would suggest that a lot of CHristians and churches revisit the BIBLICAL definitions of love and hate because we certainly aren't loving them.

The way you change the false association is to model moderation.

You can't model moderation when nearly every display in the medium that people see is attached to non-moderation and fornication. Your moderation is still gonna be viewed as temporary until you get sloshed later.

Almost all of my alcohol consumption (almost always wine) is done in the company of other Christians from my church. We may have unchurched people with us, but it is understood that we drink in moderation and immoderate drinking is not allowed.

Wonder how many of these other Christians really overindulge or have strayed into other things because of their moderate consumption?

I just see nothing positive in associating Christianity with something that has been the gateway to so much destruction. Alcohol has been a factor in many times more deaths than abortion.

 

[pk4life]

1 Cor. 11

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

 

[John of Japan]

I'm not looking to abuse anybody. But you did engage in the thread, so I thought you were ok with a discussion.

I was asking from an exegetic standpoint how you view the cup, since that's the angle from which you approached Acts 2.

And I thought the Corinthian church was perfect, since there were so many problems. Paul addressed them concerning meats offered to idols, I just figured if there was a problem with alcohol in and of itself, he would specifically address it.

Thoughts?

I gave my thoughts in posts #48 & 50. I don't plan to do an exegesis of the passage in this thread. I will say, though, that I consider idolatry (included in the Decalogue) to be a far worse sin than drunkenness (not included). So I don't think your logic here follows.

God bless.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You can't model moderation when nearly every display in the medium that people see is attached to non-moderation and fornication.

Sure you can. There's a massive difference between enjoying a beer or a glass of wine with a meal, or after a meal, as we do and a guzzling, riotous party atmosphere. The tone is completely different.

Your moderation is still gonna be viewed as temporary until you get sloshed later.

That's a very strange perspective. Why do you assume evil when no evil exists? Furthermore, you can't be responsible for the crazy conclusions that others may draw. To be very blunt, Jesus intentionally healed on the Sabbath to teach religious people that they were wrong. He did what appeared to be the wrong thing in order to show them what was right.

So many people foolishly misunderstand 1 Thessalonians 5:22 (often quoted as "avoid every appearance of evil") as meaning that we shouldn't do anything that ANYONE (usually a religious person) might consider evil. If so, then Jesus continually broke that command as well as His disciples. What is means is that we need to reject evil every time it makes an appearance.

Wonder how many of these other Christians really overindulge or have strayed into other things because of their moderate consumption?

Since I know them very well, I'd say very few, if any. Moderation (otherwise known as self-control) is a spiritual discipline. If you create an atmosphere/community where moderation is modeled and enforced by positive peer pressure, you teach people how to handle things appropriately.

I just see nothing positive in associating Christianity with something that has been the gateway to so much destruction. Alcohol has been a factor in many times more deaths than abortion.

So has food in general. How many people overindulge in their intake of food? Should we ban potlucks?

I willingly had my first alcoholic beverage at the age of 33. I was offered hospitality in the form of a glass of wine. I have no trouble rejecting peer pressure and did not drink, smoke or do drugs as a teen or young adult even though that stuff was all around me. The person who offered me the glass of wine would have felt judged/condemned if I had not accepted it. It was the Christ-like thing to do to accept it and settle in for a discussion of life and spiritual things. I drank about half of the glass over the course of an hour.

I have never been intoxicated, nor in a position where I was "feeling the wine." Furthermore, the New Testament makes it clear that Christ not only drank wine but he created wine at Cana. Moreover, the early church celebrated Communion with wine and Christians, including Baptists, didn't have a problem with the consumption of alcoholic beverages until the so-called Temperance Movement turned into an abstinence movement in the United States. The so-called "Baptist" view of alcohol was a culturally-conditioned doctrine, not a biblical doctrine. The Bible was reinterpreted (contorted) to bolster a social movement. As such, it should be rejected.

 

[JamesL]

I don't plan to do an exegesis of the passage in this thread.

That's fair enough, I suppose

God bless.

Thank you, and God bless you too.

 

[Luke2427]

I find it quite interesting when I hear the debate among believers that drinking is "Okay!" For several years I was honored to serve as the Executive Director of a Community Alcohol and Drug Counseling and Outreach Center, and during my monthly staff meetings with the counselors and the staff going out into the schools teaching teens about the downside of alcohol and drug use, the one thing that came up over and over was that my staff would share that almost always, those in mandated counseling shared with them how they started out as a casual drinker or drug user, thinking that they "Could handle it!"

It was invariably always the case that all of those being counseled for alcohol and drug abuse problems started out with one thing in mind: Doing it 'moderation!'" And eventually, a night out with friends; a bad fight with their spouse; the loss of a job; something unexpected and negative in his or her life led them to go outside the limits of "moderation" even just one or two times? And before they knew it, they were no longer able to "handle it!"

In no way am I going to try to tell anyone on this board that they should or shouldn't drink, but I have to ask you just one question: When the pedal hits the medal, can you really handle it, when it comes to not allowing drinking or drugs to push beyond the limits of what you call "moderation?"

SEE: http://www.gallup.com/poll/156770/majority-drink-alcohol-averaging-four-drinks-week.aspx

Remember this ... if you get angry with me for what I've shared, said or insinuated above, or feel the need to defend your right to drink, maybe, just maybe you already know that it has become a problem you are losing control of...

​

And before you jump all over me ... let me say that in my early days as a pastor, I was into wine, Cream Sherry, and I absolutely loved Scorpions [the mixed drink]. And yes, I drove while under the influence, and while I wasn't DRUNK, per se, I was "buzzed!" I was pulled over, and thankfully God covered my sin, and I was not made to walk any lines or breath in a tube! I know they smelled the wine on my breath, but I dodged an embarrassing event in my life! I am not asking anything in the following poll that I didn't ask myself, a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away! :smilewinkgrin: God convicted me, and I ceased drinking, because I found that I could no longer defend myself before the light God shined on me during and after drinking! :wavey:

The Bible commends moderate drinking.

Nothing else matters.

You don't get to condemn what God commends.

Period.

A trillion people could die and go to hell with a beer in their hands every second and it would not change the fact that the Word of God commends the moderate use of alcohol.

Period.

That's it.

For every person who honors the Bible no anecdote is going to move them. They are going to ask what God says, then they are going to see it in the Bible and then they are going to accept it.

Sola Scriptura!