Drinking: Can You Really Handle It?

[Luke2427]

In the first place, I was simply making an exegetical point, using my Greek experience to try to help folks understand the Word a little more. In the second place, I've done these alcohol threads before, and really don't feel like taking the abuse again from drinkers (not that you are that way--don't really know you--but see EWF's post#43 already). In the third place, if I were going to make a point about the issue, I certainly wouldn't use the Corinthian church, possibly the worst one Paul wrote to. :type:

I've seen you in these threads before and I don't think it is abuse you are fleeing from... I think it is logic and exegesis.

You have proven that you cannot condemn alcohol Scripturally.

So that is all that matters.

End of story.

No need to go any further.

Alcohol is CLEARLY a matter of liberty.

I mean CLEARLY.

Nothing could be more clear.

That is what any objective person would conclude.


PS-
The Corinthian church was NOT the worst one to which Paul wrote. He commended them numerous times in both epistles. It was the Galatian church which Paul most fiercely condemned. Their self-righteousness was far more of a stench in the nostrils of the Apostle than was the Corinthians' carnality.

 

[John of Japan]

I've seen you in these threads before and I don't think it is abuse you are fleeing from... I think it is logic and exegesis.

The decision not to post in a thread is not ergo, fleeing the thread.

I see I need to put you back on ignore to avoid your always-caustic posts. It was a nice couple of months. Sayonara :tongue3:

 

[Berean]

I used to think that all the Baptists in my life who objected to drinking were doing so out of deep seated fears and realistic understandings of the impact of alcohol.

Over the last couple of years, and after far too many of these conversations, I just realize it is an immature understanding of alcohol.

If you don't drink, don't. If you do, understand the realities of overuse.

If you don't drink, don't hold it against folks. If you do, don't hold it against folks.

Why can't we just agree to disagree and be done with it. Brow beating each other doesn't do much here.

BTW, I don't drink and never have. But I don't care if you do.

Never drank much, but I use to spill a lot.

 

[righteousdude2]

This needs to stop....

The decision not to post in a thread is not ergo, fleeing the thread.

I see I need to put you back on ignore to avoid your always-caustic posts. It was a nice couple of months. Sayonara :tongue3:

....as it does not build up or edify the body, it only tears it down!

John of Japan, I welcome your thoughts :thumbsup:

 

[John of Japan]

....as it does not build up or edify the body, it only tears it down!

John of Japan, I welcome your thoughts :thumbsup:

Brother, you're doing very well so far. Don't know that you need me. But I will contribute some thoughts here before "fleeing". :saint:

In a similar vein to your posts, I just saw on American news (ABC I think it was) that 10% of those who take marijuana become addicted, but 15% of those who drink alcohol become addicted. So to drink alcohol is a gamble: (1) that the drinker won't get addicted, and (2) that the children of the drinker won't be addicted. When our only son was growing up there was no way I would take that chance that my boy would be addicted! In those days I went by the figure 10%, so 15% is huge! What sane Christian would take that kind of chance by drinking in front of their precious child? You might as well play Russian Roulette and get it over with quick--the odds are similar at 1 in 6.

My father was beaten over and over growing up by his alcoholic father. After that man died when Dad was young, Dad's older brothers, also drunkards, took over the beatings. So when I was a boy, Dad took me down to the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago. He pointed to a drunk in the gutter, covered in his own vomit, and said, "Son, that's what alcohol does." He knew it all from first hand.

So I'll just continue to obey my Dad. I'm with the tribe of Jonadab in the Bible, who told his offspring not to drink wine. "But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever" (Jer. 30:6).

 

[kyredneck]

...PS-
The Corinthian church was NOT the worst one to which Paul wrote. He commended them numerous times in both epistles. It was the Galatian church which Paul most fiercely condemned. Their self-righteousness was far more of a stench in the nostrils of the Apostle than was the Corinthians' carnality.

Good point! Thank you!

 

[righteousdude2]

Brother, you're doing very well so far. Don't know that you need me. But I will contribute some thoughts here before "fleeing". :saint:

In a similar vein to your posts, I just saw on American news (ABC I think it was) that 10% of those who take marijuana become addicted, but 15% of those who drink alcohol become addicted. So to drink alcohol is a gamble: (1) that the drinker won't get addicted, and (2) that the children of the drinker won't be addicted. When our only son was growing up there was no way I would take that chance that my boy would be addicted! In those days I went by the figure 10%, so 15% is huge! What sane Christian would take that kind of chance by drinking in front of their precious child? You might as well play Russian Roulette and get it over with quick--the odds are similar at 1 in 6.

My father was beaten over and over growing up by his alcoholic father. After that man died when Dad was young, Dad's older brothers, also drunkards, took over the beatings. So when I was a boy, Dad took me down to the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago. He pointed to a drunk in the gutter, covered in his own vomit, and said, "Son, that's what alcohol does." He knew it all from first hand.

So I'll just continue to obey my Dad. I'm with the tribe of Jonadab in the Bible, who told his offspring not to drink wine. "But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever" (Jer. 30:6).

Great input, brother! The numbers don't lie. And I can always use a little help! :thumbsup: Besides, those who were honest enough to take the attached poll, show that 85% of the respondants have gotten drunk, and 85% drink for the fun of it! I appreciate the honesty, but it does support my reasons behind this OP. Everyone that is fighting mad at me for this OP should review the percentages of the answers made above, and ask themselves, can they really handle it? It would appear that drinking may be innocent in the minds and hearts of many, but when it comes down to the handling it, most have not handled it well!

That is the purpose of this OP. Just a gut check moment. We all need to do this from time to time. I know it helped me to check my gut at the door, and to stop in the name of Jesus! The water to wine and the "Well, Jesus drank the wine!" doesn't really appease the Holy Ghost! Especially when more than half of the responants felt the Holy Ghost convicting them to stop drinking!

God bless you over there in Japan! Nice hearing from you!

 

[John of Japan]

Great input, brother! The numbers don't lie. And I can always use a little help! :thumbsup: Besides, those who were honest enough to take the attached poll, show that 85% of the respondants have gotten drunk, and 85% drink for the fun of it! I appreciate the honesty, but it does support my reasons behind this OP. Everyone that is fighting mad at me for this OP should review the percentages of the answers made above, and ask themselves, can they really handle it? It would appear that drinking may be innocent in the minds and hearts of many, but when it comes down to the handling it, most have not handled it well!

That is the purpose of this OP. Just a gut check moment. We all need to do this from time to time. I know it helped me to check my gut at the door, and to stop in the name of Jesus! The water to wine and the "Well, Jesus drank the wine!" doesn't really appease the Holy Ghost! Especially when more than half of the responants felt the Holy Ghost convicting them to stop drinking!

God bless you over there in Japan! Nice hearing from you!

Amen and thanks. Keep on keeping on, brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

The decision not to post in a thread is not ergo, fleeing the thread.

I see I need to put you back on ignore to avoid your always-caustic posts. It was a nice couple of months. Sayonara :tongue3:

Someone to avoid to be sure.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

... I just saw on American news (ABC I think it was) that 10% of those who take marijuana become addicted, but 15% of those who drink alcohol become addicted. So to drink alcohol is a gamble: (1) that the drinker won't get addicted, and (2) that the children of the drinker won't be addicted. When our only son was growing up there was no way I would take that chance that my boy would be addicted! In those days I went by the figure 10%, so 15% is huge!

I don't know where you got this ridiculous information, but I can tell you unequivocally that it is absolute nonsense. Marijuana, cocaine, meth, alcohol, gambling, porn -- I don't care what the addiction is, the potential for addiction is equal across the board. That is because it has almost nothing to do with physiological addiction as was once thought, but it has to do with dependence of a psychological nature.

Drugs such as cocaine, methamphetamine, opiates (oxycodone, Oxycontin, heroin), all have a physiological aspect, but that comes with heavy use, and by that time the addiction has already occurred. Addiction can't be boiled down to a percentage, much as some media would love to have it made that simple for them. Addiction happens because of a combination of genetic potential (though there is no such thing as an "alcohol gene" or a "cocaine gene"), environment, socialization (parenting), emotional makeup, and a triggering event, such as a death, divorce, or, as we've seen with our combat veterans, PTSD.

The fact remains, whether you like it or not, marijuana and other drugs are more addictive because of the physiological nature of their addiction potential, and because alcohol's dangers have been widely publicized over the last 30 years, which has made use of alcohol a choice made with far more forethought and responsibility, at least among most Americans, while we are now seeing this irrational, bug-eyed defense of marijuana that includes lies about it's "safety" and even the citation of biblical passages that "God intended us to use it." What malarkey! Marijuana is far more physiologically harmful than alcohol even outside of the addictive potential. It is far worse than cigarettes for tars and carcinogens that tobacco, and marijuana, unlike alcohol, is proven to be a gateway to other drug experimentation and eventual dual addictions. Alcohol, on the other hand, in moderation, is proven to have health benefits, though it isn't necessary to maintain good health, that much is also true.

So don't try to misrepresent the statistics around me. It won't fly, and I'll call you on it every time.

What sane Christian would take that kind of chance by drinking in front of their precious child? You might as well play Russian Roulette and get it over with quick--the odds are similar at 1 in 6.

Again, bogus, manipulative, and disingenuous. Not your fault, I suppose. You've been led to believe that. It isn't true.

My father was beaten over and over growing up by his alcoholic father.

Then your attitude is understandable, but it is also grossly colored and does not allow for the fact that alcohol in moderation can be used safely. Millions of people prove that every day, and yes, John, many of them are Christians. Deal with it. There is no such thing as a "safe level of usage" of any Schedule I-IV illegal drug. Period.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Never drank much, but I use to spill a lot.

Ohhhhhhh too funny:laugh:

 

[Revmitchell]

So don't try to misrepresent the statistics around me. It won't fly, and I'll call you on it every time.

He did not try to misrepresent anything. You response is over the top.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know where you got this ridiculous information, but I can tell you unequivocally that it is absolute nonsense. Marijuana, cocaine, meth, alcohol, gambling, porn -- I don't care what the addiction is, the potential for addiction is equal across the board. That is because it has almost nothing to do with physiological addiction as was once thought, but it has to do with dependence of a psychological nature.

Drugs such as cocaine, methamphetamine, opiates (oxycodone, Oxycontin, heroin), all have a physiological aspect, but that comes with heavy use, and by that time the addiction has already occurred. Addiction can't be boiled down to a percentage, much as some media would love to have it made that simple for them. Addiction happens because of a combination of genetic potential (though there is no such thing as an "alcohol gene" or a "cocaine gene"), environment, socialization (parenting), emotional makeup, and a triggering event, such as a death, divorce, or, as we've seen with our combat veterans, PTSD.

The fact remains, whether you like it or not, marijuana and other drugs are more addictive because of the physiological nature of their addiction potential, and because alcohol's dangers have been widely publicized over the last 30 years, which has made use of alcohol a choice made with far more forethought and responsibility, at least among most Americans, while we are now seeing this irrational, bug-eyed defense of marijuana that includes lies about it's "safety" and even the citation of biblical passages that "God intended us to use it." What malarkey! Marijuana is far more physiologically harmful than alcohol even outside of the addictive potential. It is far worse than cigarettes for tars and carcinogens that tobacco, and marijuana, unlike alcohol, is proven to be a gateway to other drug experimentation and eventual dual addictions. Alcohol, on the other hand, in moderation, is proven to have health benefits, though it isn't necessary to maintain good health, that much is also true.

So don't try to misrepresent the statistics around me. It won't fly, and I'll call you on it every time.Again, bogus, manipulative, and disingenuous. Not your fault, I suppose. You've been led to believe that. It isn't true.Then your attitude is understandable, but it is also grossly colored and does not allow for the fact that alcohol in moderation can be used safely. Millions of people prove that every day, and yes, John, many of them are Christians. Deal with it. There is no such thing as a "safe level of usage" of any Schedule I-IV illegal drug. Period.

So how come when my wife drinks she cant stop but I can stop at any time?

 

[John of Japan]

I don't know where you got this ridiculous information, but I can tell you unequivocally that it is absolute nonsense.

I said very clearly where I got it: ABC News. Don't blame me for the figures if they're wrong.

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"Methinks thou dost protest too much."--Shakespeare

I didn't say you couldn't have your booze. I didn't say booze was always wrong for everybody. Go ahead and drink if you want, I truly don't care. But I hope you're thinking about your kids when you do. Man if there was only a 1% chance of addiction to booze, and I had kids still at home watching me, I wouldn't drink.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I said very clearly where I got it: ABC News. Don't blame me for the figures if they're wrong.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."--Shakespeare

I didn't say you couldn't have your booze. I didn't say booze was always wrong for everybody. Go ahead and drink if you want, I truly don't care. But I hope you're thinking about your kids when you do. Man if there was only a 1% chance of addiction to booze, and I had kids still at home watching me, I wouldn't drink.

Sooner or later, your kids will grow up and there is a good chance they will want to experience things denied to them in the home. So good luck with your stance of total abstinence then.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

He did not try to misrepresent anything. You response is over the top.

Claiming a 15% alcohol addiction rate is misrepresentation of the facts, whether deliberate or not.

So how come when my wife drinks she cant stop but I can stop at any time?

Did I say everyone can control their drinking? No. My point was that the level of dependency or addiction to alcohol is not as high as John wants to claim it is.

I said very clearly where I got it: ABC News. Don't blame me for the figures if they're wrong.

I've researched ABC News, both before my post, and again to make sure I hadn't missed anything. There isn't anything on their website or any news stories archived over the last month that have any such statistics in them. Nor is there any such statistical revision among research professionals or addictions professionals that has come out in that time frame, or before. Perhaps you misunderstood.

etc., etc. for a paragraph

etc., etc. for another paragraph

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."--Shakespeare

"Me thinks thou didst want to avoid dealing with the facts, which is why you downplayed me paragraphs rather than quote them directly." -- me.

I didn't say you couldn't have your booze. I didn't say booze was always wrong for everybody. Go ahead and drink if you want, I truly don't care. But I hope you're thinking about your kids when you do.

My kids are adults. They don't drink. Happy?

Man if there was only a 1% chance of addiction to booze, and I had kids still at home watching me, I wouldn't drink.

They grew up knowing why I did not drink then, and they know that I have moderated my approach to alcohol with the occasional glass of wine or beer now. Your choice in raising your children was to not drink in front of them. My choice was the same, plus sharing the horror stories of my abuse of alcohol and my addiction to disordered gambling, particularly my time in prison for forgery and theft by deceit as a result of misguided efforts to pay off gambling debts. They don't gamble, either, and neither do I. Alcohol was a panacea. Gambling was a stronghold.

The old saw that "do as I say, not as I do" sounds good, but it isn't true. Abstinence from drinking in front of your kids doesn't guarantee they won't drink. In fact, children growing up in homes that are "dry" and are also without parental alcohol and drug education usually wind up experimenting and getting into difficulties. Not drinking doesn't work, necessarily. Not talking, however, is even worse.

 

[InTheLight]

The old saw that "do as I say, not as I do" sounds good, but it isn't true. Abstinence from drinking in front of your kids doesn't guarantee they won't drink. In fact, children growing up in homes that are "dry" and are also without parental alcohol and drug education usually wind up experimenting and getting into difficulties. Not drinking doesn't work, necessarily. Not talking, however, is even worse.

So true.

Here is my experience. Grew up in a Lutheran home. I can remember my Dad drinking beer on Friday nights in front of the TV. Nothing excessive, maybe three or four. Occasionally on Saturday nights there would be card playing nights with the neighbors. There would be highballs served. Parents had whiskey and gin for mixed drinks and there was a bottle of brandy in the cupboard for colds and coughs. There was wine at Thanksgiving dinner. Alcohol was just this thing that adults lightly consumed on the weekends and in social settings.

My mom and I got saved on the same weekend, she at age 50 me at age 13. Immediately thereafter all the booze was poured down the sink. No more beer was purchased. Dad no longer had beer and chips on Friday nights in front of the TV. They had made the decision to quit drinking. Simultaneously we were attending a strict IFB church, with a very forceful conviction in the perils of alcohol, wine was really only grape juice in the Bible, etc. etc. Having a beer was something that needed to be repented of. This was the culture I grew up in.

It happened that I grew up in the 70's and when I was in my teens the drinking age was lowered to 18. Some of my friends were trying it. Because I had no real world grounding in how to moderate alcohol drinking, I was dying of curiosity. I joined in. Frequently I had too much--it seemed I had a "lot of catchin' up to do". Eventually, I didn't like being stupid and acting like an idiot. I started to be conscious of how many beers I was having. I would stop and switch to water or soda or or alternate with water and soda when I reached my personal limit. Basically, I taught myself moderation.

Looking back, I wish my parents would have had talks with me. I wish they would have kept up the example of moderation that they had been showing me before they poured everything down the drain. I could have been educated about alcohol instead of simply NO, NO, NO, NO!!! It would have saved me some bad experiences and kept me out of some trouble.

I have two teenage boys. I have a couple of beers on the weekends usually during sports events. I talk to them about the dangers of drinking. I think I'm setting a good example. I hope so. In my experience, the total abstinence route and complete denunciation of all consumption of alcohol didn't work. I think it is an unrealistic example for today's kids.

 

[Revmitchell]

Claiming a 15% alcohol addiction rate is misrepresentation of the facts, whether deliberate or not.

Your statement comes across as you accused him of intentionally misrepresenting it. The way you worded it can leave no other conclusion. John is very fair and very honest. I have never found him to do such a thing.