The Infilling of the Holy Spirit though is not just for certain persons with special tasks/ministry, as ALL Christians are commanded by the Holy Spirit to be filled with Him throughout every day!
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Election spoken of in scripture...like this-
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Rockson
Active Member
And of which I agree. But there are unique times and instances where God manifests himself in a bold clear and outstanding way. Elizabeth in Luke 1 had God in her life but when an unction of the spirit comes forth it brings an absolute definite revelation of something to the forefront.
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women..." The same as Paul in Acts13:9 and with a Peter in Acts 4:8.
It came out as bold, strong and in no uncertain terms God actually speaking through Elizabeth. So I suggest my statement holds true. God did ask through the Spirit to Elymas how long he'd pervert the ways of the Lord. Again seemingly to suggest Elymas could do something about it and could have turned to God. The choice wasn't God's...BUT HIS.
Could the Apostles, especial Paul, rejected their call from the Lord then?And of which I agree. But there are unique times and instances where God manifests himself in a bold clear and outstanding way. Elizabeth in Luke 1 had God in her life but when an unction of the spirit comes forth it brings an absolute definite revelation of something to the forefront.
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women..." The same as Paul in Acts13:9 and with a Peter in Acts 4:8.
It came out as bold, strong and in no uncertain terms God actually speaking through Elizabeth. So I suggest my statement holds true. God did ask through the Spirit to Elymas how long he'd pervert the ways of the Lord. Again seemingly to suggest Elymas could do something about it and could have turned to God. The choice wasn't God's...BUT HIS.
Rockson
Active Member
Not sure why he couldn't have. Granted God said to Ananias that Paul would proclaim his name among the Gentiles but that's a revealing of God's foreknowledge to encourage Ananias himself not to be afraid to go to Saul. Paul also said in Galatians 1 he was separated from birth for the cause but such I wouldn't think would stop him from resisting or rejecting. He had actually been resisting all along for Jesus told him, "It's hard to be kicking against the goads" or to be going against God's witness to him through I believe Stephen's preaching and probably hearing the good news as well from many Christians he had arrested.
Some individuals do I believe have a unique call on them from the day they're born to achieve a certain thing but does such mean it'll come to fruition? Maybe yes and maybe no. Moses was called and set aside from his birth to be a deliverer...nobody questions that. But we see Moses resisted God as God's original instructions were for Moses to stand before Pharaoh alone....Moses resisted this so God brought Aaron out to team up with him....also Exodus 4:25 demonstrates even though God set apart Moses for this call vs 25 reveals the Lord appeared on the road and was going to kill him.
His wife intervened quickly and circumcised their son which Moses had resisted or failed to do. So with Paul why should we set it any different. Men can cause their call to be set aside and God could raise up another. This was actually true of Israel as a nation. Their true call was to be the home base nation out of which the gospel would be shared from around the world. That call was set aside due to their by and large rejecting it.
Wow, Paul could have rejected God? There is no ‘Plan B’ with God.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:29,30]
This can NOT mean everybody w/o exception. Those He foreknew...not just looking down the hallway of time and finding out who would be willing and electing them accordingly...He presdestined. Those He predestined are those whom He called. Those who He called, He justified. Those He justified, He glorified. In heaven, this is already a done deal, but in time, we are not yet glorified.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:29,30]
This can NOT mean everybody w/o exception. Those He foreknew...not just looking down the hallway of time and finding out who would be willing and electing them accordingly...He presdestined. Those He predestined are those whom He called. Those who He called, He justified. Those He justified, He glorified. In heaven, this is already a done deal, but in time, we are not yet glorified.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
But what he actually said was:
Why did you take what this man said, out of context, to falsely accuse him?
To understand Romans 8:28 and predestination one must not cherry pick out a verse but compare scriptures. To Israel, the subject of those predestined it is said in Romans 10:21, “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” – these unbelievers were doing the opposite from supposedly being predetermined to respond in a certain way, the opposite of the true way to salvation of those who believed in THEIR hearts and confessed with THEIR mouths. (Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
We see the subject (Israel/predestined) revisited in (Rom 11:2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
- We are told God did not reject those He foreknew but we see, Romans 10:21, 11:2, they had the volitional ability to reject Him. This all has to do with the revelation that God will do the same for those that love the truth and are called, believers have the same benefits and are emboldened by God’s providence (not determinism) during their own trails upon which He will judge their choices in real time. (Rom 8:18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Your entire line of argumentation is negated by the following:
[2] God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? [3] “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” [4] But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [5] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. [6] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:2–6 ESV; emphasis mine)
You too need to watch the "cherry picking," it would seem.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
"Foreknew" in Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 means "chose." Clearly in Romans 11:2 it functions as the opposition of "rejected," and is the best understanding of Romans 8:29. Considering these two verses are the only two uses of this word in the Pauline writings (if I recall correctly), the meaning becomes quite plain--chose.
Also, the alternate argument simply doesn't make any sense. To argue "foreknowledge" in the traditional arminian sense, you'd have to argue that God is foreknowing an event. The text here is clearly personal. God is foreknowing people, not what they do, etc.
The Archangel
That was my point. It is the same group Paul had in focus, and that group can not mean everybody w/o exception. Those who God foreknew, He predestined. It goes all the way through glorification. Not everyone will be glorified, so it has to be those who He foreknew, and foreknew is an intimate meaning, just like Adam knew Eve, which the NIV correct states..."Adam made love with Eve..."
I don’t want to get too personal about your “point” but what doesn’t make “sense” is the suggestion leading to that poor God was only able to save a remnant of those He supposedly foreknew meaning that he “predetermined” them to be saved but must have got His number of elect wrong as Archangel’s conclusions of foreknowing an elect group of people (Israel) who didn’t make it would have to amount to.
Romans 8 is addressed to Christians. This is revelation to a new group to which Paul is speaking of a new proposition, a promise. V28 we see “all things work together for good” being clarified toward “them that love God” (who believe in their heart and confess with their mouth, Rom 10:9) and this relating to God’s purposes which are to govern a laid out plan wherein within time He consults and contrives in an intimate relationship through His Son a design of saving those in a lost world by the death of His Son.
In v29 the predestination is in this plan of being conformed to image of His Son, and does not speak of who is saved or not, or who will be among the predetermined elect. This is in relation to receiving the Spirit of adoption onto election, Rom 8:15. Obviously in referencing to “chosen” Israel one can clearly see that “He stretched out His hand all day long to them” but they were disobedient and unbelievers in Rom 10:21, which thoroughly refutes the Calvinist’ claim of pre-election through pre-determinism. “Predestination” rightly understood speaks to the destiny of those who are saved and is a defense of the decree to save believers in Christ.
V30 is laying out the categories in God’s plan for true believers. God foreknew those to be saved, who by His judgment, (YES, “all His ways are judgment”, Deut 32:4, God searches the heart, (Rom 8:27) “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”) …and through this divine providence are to be predestined in Christ in this way, …believers are called, justified and glorified to complete salvation – and this takes us back to the revelation of the purpose of God. We, those to be saved, are predestined to be led by the Spirit of God. (Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Kind of funny that you think simply cherry picking out 1/3 of a sentence somehow negates anything I said. Merely finishing that sentence (who have not bowed the knee to Baal) backs my view of the volition of man because some were not kept by your definition of predeterminism being we see they did otherwise and bowed the knee to Baal instead.
Paul had already established that not all Israel was Israel in the beginning of Romans 9.In Romans 11 he speaks of the elect remnant that He has kept...quoting Isa1:9....perhaps Benjamin missed those verses that would here helped him on this....
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Kind of funny that you think simply cherry picking out 1/3 of a sentence somehow negates anything I said. Merely finishing that sentence (who have not bowed the knee to Baal) backs my view of the volition of man because some were not kept by your definition of predeterminism being we see they did otherwise and bowed the knee to Baal instead.
Not at all... Not bowing the knee to Baal in this text is the result of a direct intervention by God to keep for Himself certain people who will remain faithful to Him. Your argument was something like "God doesn't do that," and this text clearly states that God overcomes the wills of some. In this case the "choice" not to worship Baal is not a result of the 7,000's "volition;" it is a result of God's "determinism."
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Yes! The so-called "Golden Chain of Salvation" shows that it is a selective salvation. The point I was trying to "pile on" was that "foreknew" means "chose." The intimacy of the word Yada (to know) in Hebrew cannot be overstated. But, it seems, there is a slight difference in nuance when it is used between humans and between God and man.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Paul was chosen and called by God while stillsomeone destroying the Church, so God would have called Him to be Apostle for jesus, and then Paul would have said, "no thanks?"
The foreknowledge of God involves Him actually determining to save His own people out, so not that passive viewing the future events.
Those who want to following the view of God seeing the future result, but not directly involved in that decision process, hold to that not due to the scriptures, but to their need to maintain full free will, and "fairness."
You mean that aspect that holds with salvation being from start to finish the work of the Lord?Talk about delusional!
FYI, I can stomach most of Arminianism, but Calvinism doesn't chew well much at all and leaves no choice but to vomit up the little pieces that would never digest in a million years.
Many who hold to some type of it as the means God saves lost sinners really have not thought it through that well, as they just accept Calvinism is wrong, period!
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