Election

[Iconoclast]

Icon, do you listen to YOURSELF, I personally am growing a bit disillusioned with your continued careless use of adjectives with the obvious intent of being inflammatory. (i.e. heresy) I caution you to be careful.

QF......Heresy is heresy. A works gospel.....is heresy. I call it for what it is.

We are not saved by works.....we are not sanctified by works.
That is how it is. Perhaps it is your desire for all things that oppose DoG that lets you open this door. Go ahead and own it you want to
I will oppose this clear error everytime.

 

[quantumfaith]

QF......Heresy is heresy. A works gospel.....is heresy. I call it for what it is.

We are not saved by works.....we are not sanctified by works.
That is how it is. Perhaps it is your desire for all things that oppose DoG that lets you open this door. Go ahead and own it you want to
I will oppose this clear error everytime.

I unashamedly stand in personal and intellectual opposition to DoG, but YOU know I do so honestly and genuinely. You are lashing out now, you have no need to do so. I will continue to :thumbsup: when I read commentary with which I seem to find myself in agreement. "Own it" what exactly do you mean? Is that a "jab" also?

 

[12strings]

2 things:

Many scholars believe David was speaking of being slightly less than legitimate at birth. His mother (who was Jewish) was very likely either married, or had relations with a non-Jew before David was born.

This is a very unlikely meaning, and you should know it. There is simply not evidence of it. Why would David refer to his mother's supposed infidelity, when his entire purpose is confessing his own sin?

Amy, it is obvious you have either listening to or reading Calvinist doctrine. You are falling for their proof-texts which are pulled out of context and do not really say what Calvinism says they are saying.

Even if you reject Calvinists teachings, you have to realize that SOMEONE had to have come up with these ideas on their own simply by reading scripture...Why couldn't Amy do the same?

-------------------------

And one more just for fun, since I'm know that it is not what you meant:

...They certainly should not be used to form doctrine.

Yes, Amy, by all means...we should CERTAINLY not use scriptures to form doctrine...We are all shocked that you would espouse such a thing!:tongue3:

 

[Winman]

Paul is speaking of all men. That is the context.

No it is not Amy, keep reading.

Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

David was clearly distinguishing between the wicked and the righteous.

And verse 3 does not say the wicked are born evil, it says they "go astray".

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The scriptures repeatedly compare sinners to sheep that have gone astray. A sheep cannot go astray unless it was first in the flock.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Amy, you cannot return to someplace you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I CAN return to California, because I have been to California before.

The scriptures do not describe us as originally being sinners. The scriptures say God has made all men upright or righteous, but men "go astray".

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Here is scripture that directly says God has made man upright. And notice the plural word "they" that points back to the word "man" that shows this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

So, men are born upright, but they "go astray" and become lost. When they repent, they "return" to Jesus as 1 Peter 2:25 says.

No. I haven't been listening to anyone different that I normally do nor have I been reading Calvinist doctrine. I don't own any books of that nature. I haven't even been listening to programs on the radio lately. I have been reading Ephesians recently though.

Well, you are quoting their favorite proof texts for Total Depravity. These verses are all pulled out of context.

You are falling for their false doctrine hook, line, and sinker. Sorry to sound mean, but that is the truth.

 

[jbh28]

Well Amy, look again.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Amy, we are chosen "in him". You are not chosen outside of Christ, but when you are "in Christ".

That did not happen before the foundation of the world, nobody was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world.

Paul thought it was....

 

[Amy.G]

No it is not Amy, keep reading.
David was clearly distinguishing between the wicked and the righteous.

Paul quotes this to show that ALL men have sinned.

The scriptures repeatedly compare sinners to sheep that have gone astray. A sheep cannot go astray unless it was first in the flock.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

It means we are "like" sheep that have gone astray. We're all wandering around lost and in trouble until the Shepherd seeks and saves us.
NKJV:
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

The scriptures do not describe us as originally being sinners. The scriptures say God has made all men upright or righteous, but men "go astray".

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Here is scripture that directly says God has made man upright. And notice the plural word "they" that points back to the word "man" that shows this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

So, men are born upright, but they "go astray" and become lost. When they repent, they "return" to Jesus as 1 Peter 2:25 says.

Ecc says that God made man (Adam) upright, not all men. Since Adam, all men are sinners. Men since Adam are not born upright. My view of this has nothing to do with Calvinism. I have heard this taught in every Baptist church I've ever been in.

You are falling for their false doctrine hook, line, and sinker. Sorry to sound mean, but that is the truth.

I don't think so. I'm a pretty good bible student and trust God to lead me to the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

I think jbh28 and Winman are making the same error. You are reading this text as if Paul is addressing "us" individually rather than "us" who believe.

It's like this: If I were a speaker at the republican convention, after an election we won, I might say, "The American people have chosen us and our values to lead this country." Now, if you read that correctly you understand it from a corporate "us" as in the GOP. But if you impose an overly individualistic interpretation you confuse the intent because it suggests that EVERY registered republican was elected to lead.

Paul is simply saying that God has chosen believers (the church..."US") to be adopted and conformed to the image of Christ. He is simply saying that it has be God's plan since the before the foundation of the world to save whosoever believes in him, even if they are a Gentile. It has nothing to do with God preselecting individual winners and losers before creating the world. How do I know? Because then they wouldn't have called it 'good news.' Its not good news to say that God has chosen to save a preselected few and leave the rest to be certainly condemned. That is REALLY REALLY bad news.

 

[Alive in Christ]

AmyG..

The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

To say otherwise is to mangle the scriptures.

Full blown calvinism turns our great and mercifull God into a sadistic monster.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, I made it an exciting evening didn't I? :laugh:

Never a dull moment on the BB!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Quantum posted...

mean you no disrespect Icon, but given Dr. Craig's scholarship vs. yours, well I would have to be much more likely to agree with him.

ha! Me too.

 

[Iconoclast]

AmyG..

The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

Yes they are....when the Spirit quickens them...they are willing...no one else is.

To say otherwise is to mangle the scriptures.

Yes...to deny that God elects sinners and makes them willing is bad.

Full blown calvinism turns our great and mercifull God into a sadistic monster

Another attack on the God of scripture.....very ignorant statement

 

[jbh28]

AmyG..

The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

To say otherwise is to mangle the scriptures.

Full blown calvinism turns our great and mercifull God into a sadistic monster.

Sorry, I didn't know choosing to save sinners that deserve hell made God into a "sadistic monster."

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul quotes this to show that ALL men have sinned.



It means we are "like" sheep that have gone astray. We're all wandering around lost and in trouble until the Shepherd seeks and saves us.
NKJV:
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost.




Ecc says that God made man (Adam) upright, not all men. Since Adam, all men are sinners. Men since Adam are not born upright. My view of this has nothing to do with Calvinism. I have heard this taught in every Baptist church I've ever been in.




I don't think so. I'm a pretty good bible student and trust God to lead me to the truth.

Well done AMYG.....you have correctly read the passages because that was all you tried to do...no scripture twisting:applause::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[revmwc]

That's not what Paul said. It doesn't say whom he foreknew would come to him. And it's not what he foreknew. God knew his elect. The Bible never teaches that God looks ahead, sees who will believe, and chooses based on that. This passage and the I Peter passage have to be read into to get to that conclusion. And a passage like Ephesians would have to not mean "according to the good pleasure of his will."

Genesis 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger

Seems God knew which one would choose for Him and against Him here.

It seems Paul the point about it too here in Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

God foreknew Esau and Jacob, He knew the choices they would make before they were ever born. Why if God knew them before hand would you feel it doesn't do the same for us?

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry, I didn't know choosing to save sinners that deserve hell made God into a "sadistic monster."

Correct jbh.....only team jihad would make such an ignorant charge against God. maybe their good dr. has taught them this??

 

[jbh28]

I think jbh28 and Winman are making the same error. You are reading this text as if Paul is addressing "us" individually rather than "us" who believe.

Individuals are delcared holy(sanctified)
Individuals are declared blameless(justified)
Individuals are adopted.

He is talking to more than one person..aka Group, but it's individuals that are saved. Saying it's a group is being chosen is reading something into the text that's not there.

 

[revmwc]

There is at least one on here, probably more, that use Romans 8:29 as a proof text that the only thing God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Uh...OK.

How can that take place without salvation?

The text Amy gives shows how we are predestined to salvation, as this is the context.

Scripture interprets Scripture. And blows holes in Arminian theology that denies this truth. :wavey: :love2: :thumbsup:

It is great how the bible blows holes in the Arminian and Calvanistic teachings whe one Esigetes instead of Eisegeting scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac

God foreknew Esau and Jacob, He knew the choices they would make before they were ever born. Why if God knew them before hand would you feel it doesn't do the same for us?

God did not foreknow Esau.....you do not understand foreknowledge biblically. Was Esau predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus?justified? glorified?
if you do not get this...you will not understand it.

 

[jbh28]

Genesis 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger

Seems God knew which one would choose for Him and against Him here.

Not one person on here(other than one, but he hasn't posted in this thread) would deny the omniscience of God. No one here is saying that God doesn't know. Where your error is that you are assuming that this knowledge is the basis of it, which is not the case.

It seems Paul the point about it too here in Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

God foreknew Esau and Jacob, He knew the choices they would make before they were ever born. Why if God knew them before hand would you feel it doesn't do the same for us?

Again, you are making a erroneous assumption that the foreknowledge here is the basis of it. Also, the passage specifically states that the election was not based on anything in Jacob nor Esau.

 

[revmwc]

JBH,

You and AmyG have simply posted the truth of scripture....revmac posts a very fine verse but does not seem to see what it says...he tries to add to it...and the result is revmac does not welcome the truth of the verse as he feels that God can only know what man can do by looking into the future to see ......what man does......instead of seeing WHOM....
this is a completely wrong view of biblical foreknowledge.

Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Seems God knew these two before their birth, why would you think an Omniscient God wouldn't know the choices everyone would make and therefore elected them to be the children of God based on what He knew about them beforehand.