EPH 2:1 Quickeneth

[Dr. Bob]

Dr. Bob is correct about Ephesians 2:1. However Ephesians 2:4, 5 present the same truth without added words. That truth is that God makes those who are spiritually dead in sin spiritually alive, that is regenerates them, and that through no action on their part. The regenerated person is then given the gift of faith by which they respond to the Gospel.

Exactly. Salvation is of the Lord, not Bob. HE regenerates me, giving me repentance and faith. Mine is a subsequent response to His first choice and action.

And Jesus said "all that the Father gave Him WOULD come to Him; He would lose none of those". God can tell (and He DOES) "All men to repent", but only those given the supernatural gift of repentance and faith will. And every one to whom that gift is given will repent and believe the Gospel. Every one.

The rest will continue on in their living death in sin.

I am so thankful that God gave undeserving me that spiritual inward hidden "birth" so that I could repent and believe the Gospel. All praise to the glory of His grace alone.

 

[BaptistBob]

Exactly. Salvation is of the Lord, not Bob. HE regenerates me, giving me repentance and faith. Mine is a subsequent response to His first choice and action.

And Jesus said "all that the Father gave Him WOULD come to Him; He would lose none of those". God can tell (and He DOES) "All men to repent", but only those given the supernatural gift of repentance and faith will. And every one to whom that gift is given will repent and believe the Gospel. Every one.

The rest will continue on in their living death in sin.

I am so thankful that God gave undeserving me that spiritual inward hidden "birth" so that I could repent and believe the Gospel. All praise to the glory of His grace alone.

As I said, Eph 2 is clear, and it certainly does not teach that.

As for John 6, you probably know that it is bad hermeneutic to look for the meaning of a verse in another book. John 6 teaches that Jesus has seen the Father and is delivering the Father's message. All who believe it (the Father's message) are then given to the son, since the son is not delivering his own message. The point, imho, is entirely different than yours, which is that certain UNBELIEVERS are given to the son.

 

[RAdam]

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jesus didn't say, all that cometh to me the Father shall give me, but rather, all that the Father giveth me shall come to me. And, of all those that were given to Son by the Father, He loses none.

 

[OldRegular]

I am so thankful that God gave undeserving me that spiritual inward hidden "birth" so that I could repent and believe the Gospel. All praise to the glory of His grace alone.

I know what you mean. I know myself, not as well as God does, but I know that were it not for the fact that God regenerated and gave me the faith to believe I would still be lost in sin. I praise God for His Grace in saving me and believe that the Biblical Doctrines of Grace magnify the Grace of God more than anything that I know.

 

[webdog]

Old Regular, you are correct. Working for heaven is a popular doctrine but some will not submit to the Doctrines of Grace and that is a pitiful state to be in. Believing thay you have to manufacture your own self in order to become a child of GOD is a mighty task that goes nowhere.

Not "submitting" to the "doctrines of grace", or as it's often called...calvinism, does not mean one automatically believes you have to work for salvation.

 

[BaptistBob]

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jesus didn't say, all that cometh to me the Father shall give me, but rather, all that the Father giveth me shall come to me. And, of all those that were given to Son by the Father, He loses none.

That's not my point. My point is that he said, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."

In other words, everyone listening to and learning what the Father is teaching will come to Jesus. God is drawing through the message. Those who believe the message will come to Christ.

He repeats the theme just a few verses later: 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[Dr. Bob]

In other words, everyone listening to and learning what the Father is teaching will come to Jesus. God is drawing through the message. Those who believe the message will come to Christ.

And which of us "listens and learns"? The Bible is clear that we CAN NOT seek God, call on God, believe God, make a choice for God, do a single "right" thing in the sight of God. We are totally and utterly incapable. Or maybe you are the exception?

So again I ask WHO defies what God has said is our nature and our total inability (dead) and then "comes" to Jesus?

There has to be a fundamental change in NATURE, inwardly, unseen by mankind that will allow me to repent (a good work that I cannot do) and believe (another good work that I cannot do).

That fundamental change from a dead heart of stone to a living heart of flesh is the "quickening" work of God the holy Spirit.

I've often said that all of the biblical teaching on salvation hinges on understanding man and our fallen nature. If we can do ANY good thing (again, the Bible says this is impossible) then WE can take credit.

And Eph 1 already said my salvation was to the praise of the glory of His grace alone.

 

[RAdam]

Every man that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What does He mean? Surely men heard the gospel that didn't come to Christ. This designs not merely the external ministry of the word, but the internal call of grace.

Who hears God? Jesus says that the ones that hear God are of God. Those that hear His voice are of the truth. Surely men heard in an external sense Jesus Christ that weren't of the truth, that weren't of God. This cannot design merely hearing in an external sense, it must refer to Christ speaking to one's heart. Those come to Christ. Those that were given Him are called by God, they are called from death in sins to life in Christ, they are drawn to Him.

 

[BaptistBob]

And which of us "listens and learns"? The Bible is clear that we CAN NOT seek God, call on God, believe God, make a choice for God, do a single "right" thing in the sight of God. We are totally and utterly incapable. Or maybe you are the exception?

So again I ask WHO defies what God has said is our nature and our total inability (dead) and then "comes" to Jesus?

There has to be a fundamental change in NATURE, inwardly, unseen by mankind that will allow me to repent (a good work that I cannot do) and believe (another good work that I cannot do).

That fundamental change from a dead heart of stone to a living heart of flesh is the "quickening" work of God the holy Spirit.

I've often said that all of the biblical teaching on salvation hinges on understanding man and our fallen nature. If we can do ANY good thing (again, the Bible says this is impossible) then WE can take credit.

And Eph 1 already said my salvation was to the praise of the glory of His grace alone.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is something I believe in. In order for any man or woman to believe they must have the enabling activity of the Holy Spirit to believe. This, however, is not the same as the terminology you are using.

For example, Matthew 11:

20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[d] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Jesus passed judgement on Korazin and Bethsaida, saying that if he had done the same miracles in the most wicked of the Old Testament cities, those wicked cities would have repented. Now, according to your "doctrines of grace" people who are enabled to believe will inevitably believe. According to my "Doctrines of Grace," God's grace can be resisted.

So, unless we disagree with Jesus, we both believe that those most wicked cities in the OT were given the ability to believe by the Holy Spirit. Again, we BOTH share that view. However, they did not believe, thereby proving my point that regeneration (a term reserved for the saved) is not irresistible. In fact, it is the result of faith, not the cause of it.

 

[RAdam]

Surely you can understand the difference between believing in Jesus Christ and external repentence. Surely you can see that Jesus wasn't saying the entirety of those cities would have believed He is the Christ. When God's message was preached at Ninevah, the city repented externally. Later on, they were back to their wicked ways.

The cities of Bethsaida, Chorazin, and Capernaum had rejected the ultimate messenger, Jesus Christ. They had repented. Jesus is saying that those old wicked OT cities would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had the miracles been done in them. In other words those cities were destroyed, so what do you think will happen with these cities?

 

[OldRegular]

And which of us "listens and learns"? The Bible is clear that we CAN NOT seek God, call on God, believe God, make a choice for God, do a single "right" thing in the sight of God. We are totally and utterly incapable. Or maybe you are the exception?

So again I ask WHO defies what God has said is our nature and our total inability (dead) and then "comes" to Jesus?

There has to be a fundamental change in NATURE, inwardly, unseen by mankind that will allow me to repent (a good work that I cannot do) and believe (another good work that I cannot do).

That fundamental change from a dead heart of stone to a living heart of flesh is the "quickening" work of God the holy Spirit.

I've often said that all of the biblical teaching on salvation hinges on understanding man and our fallen nature. If we can do ANY good thing (again, the Bible says this is impossible) then WE can take credit.

And Eph 1 already said my salvation was to the praise of the glory of His grace alone.

John Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322] commented on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation in much the same way in the 19th century.

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

I have presented the above quotation a number of times on this Forum because I believe it is so true.

 

[BaptistBob]

Surely you can understand the difference between believing in Jesus Christ and external repentence. Surely you can see that Jesus wasn't saying the entirety of those cities would have believed He is the Christ. When God's message was preached at Ninevah, the city repented externally. Later on, they were back to their wicked ways.

The cities of Bethsaida, Chorazin, and Capernaum had rejected the ultimate messenger, Jesus Christ. They had repented. Jesus is saying that those old wicked OT cities would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had the miracles been done in them. In other words those cities were destroyed, so what do you think will happen with these cities?

That's a good one. Jesus was calling upon them to "externally repent"? :laugh:

I'm not too worried that that theory is going to become popular.

23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths

 

[OldRegular]

Hardly. My only fear is to be on the wrong side of the issue.

It seems to me that the common theme here among the "Reformed" is that their perspective is the measuring stick. My measuring stick is Scripture. Let the cards fall where they may. I'm always reforming.

Your measuring stick is not Scripture it is your eisegesis of Scripture, the big I who is sovereign.

 

[Dr. Bob]

John Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322] commented on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation in much the same way in the 19th century.

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible."

Time doesn't change truth, eh? Great quotation. God MUST do the first work of wooing, calling and regenerating, for man can never respond in repentance and faith without this prior change.

To to the praise of the glory of His grace.

 

[Amy.G]

Time doesn't change truth, eh?

No it doesn't and here it is.


Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(This woman came to Jesus to anoint Him with expensive perfume)


Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
(This woman came to Jesus for healing)


Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
(This was the leper among the 10 lepers that cried out to Jesus for healing)


Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
(This was the blind man who cried to Jesus "Son of David have mercy on me!")


Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Now if faith is the "gift" of God that is spoken of in Ephesians, how can it possibly fail?!? Does God fail?

The faith that we exercise toward God is our faith. It was given to us only in the sense that we are created in God's image, not that God bestows a "magical" faith before we can believe.

 

[OldRegular]

No it doesn't and here it is.



Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
(This was the leper among the 10 lepers that cried out to Jesus for healing)

Amy

Why did only one of the 10 return to Jesus Christ? Certainly the remaining 9 knew they had been healed of leprosy.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy

Why did only one of the 10 return to Jesus Christ? Certainly the remaining 9 knew they had been healed of leprosy.

Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

The nine were Jews. They knew they were healed, and headed to the temple to show themselves to the priest, but they did not glorify God as the "stranger" did. The stranger is another word for Gentile. Jesus healed a Gentile!

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


This is another example of Jesus extending forgiveness and salvation to the Gentiles. That's what the account is about.

 

[OldRegular]

Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

The nine were Jews. They knew they were healed, and headed to the temple to show themselves to the priest, but they did not glorify God as the "stranger" did. The stranger is another word for Gentile. Jesus healed a Gentile!

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


This is another example of Jesus extending forgiveness and salvation to the Gentiles. That's what the account is about.

All ten were made physically whole. However, the nine were not made spiritually whole. The tenth was and he returned to Jesus Christ, exercising the gift of faith.

 

[Amy.G]

All ten were made physically whole. However, the nine were not made spiritually whole. The tenth was and he returned to Jesus Christ, exercising the gift of faith.

The tenth was made whole because of his faith in Christ.

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

[Allan]

The tenth was made whole because of his faith in Christ.

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

True. All were healed, only one was made whole. What made the difference? Was he smarter, better looking, ect... No - he was the only who placed their faith (depenancy) upon and in Christ alone. Good one Amy