EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

[Iconoclast]

Brother, then please help me understand how we were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. If this is predestination/election then you are are saying Christ had a crop of folks "already in Him". How is that possible?

Hello Jon,
Yes for sure. God who knows the end from the beginning saw mankind as fallen as the fall into sin and death was not a surprise to Him.
Before creation the Father gave to the Son a multitude of sinners that He would seek and to save.
We know this because jn 6 clearly speaks of the Father giving them to the Son.
We know this because Jesus is spoken of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world rev13:8
In other words Jesus already took upon Himself the role of mediator and surety before creation and the fall could take place.
Why would He have to be the Lamb slain before the fall into sin and death even occured in time?
Jonathan Edward's starts off His teaching on the Great work of God in the history of redemption with this concept derived from scripture.
I do not have His works in front of me at this moment but perhaps later I will post it. I think it is available for free online.
Also when God tells Jeremiah that before I formed you in the womb, I ordained you to be a prophet to the nations...you do not puzzle over that do you? Or Psalm 139 when it says thine eyes did see my substance being yet informed. We love that when explaining why abortion is murder, it why not when we consider salvation.

 

[MB]

Mb, read verses 1-5....are you suggesting that the us is not the saints Paul is writing to? It is not written to the faithful saints at Ephesus, but some unnamed companion? That only Paul and the unnamed companion were chosen? Is that really what you want to say you are reading here?
Has anyone else in Church history seen that idea here?

Exactly what I said. Yes this is written to the saints at Ephesus But verses 4 and 5 the word us refers to Himself and those with him other wise he would have said "Ye" because in verse 13 he clearly uses the word "Ye" to refer to those who are not the" us" in verse 4 and 5.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly what I said. Yes this is written to the saints at Ephesus But verses 4 and 5 the word us refers to Himself and those with him other wise he would have said "Ye" because in verse 13 he clearly uses the word "Ye" to refer to those who are not the" us" in verse 4 and 5.
MB

So only Paul and his companions were chosen before the foundation of the world, when the whole letter describes the whole church being built into a Holy temple,an household of faith, the very body of Christ? Paul and his companions were blessed by this election, but everyone else has to fend for themselves? The text does not indicate that anywhere. The us is the believers being built together eph3:9-11

 

[JonShaff]

Before creation the Father gave to the Son a multitude of sinners that He would seek and to save.

These existed before eternity?
It's my understanding, the Father Gave the Son the nations as His Inheritance (Psalms 2) and it does not indicate which individuals, just simply a group of people (Which we now know to be the Church).

We know this because jn 6 clearly speaks of the Father giving them to the Son.

No, John 6 does not "Clearly" say that. John 6 is talking about the present living Sheep of God.

We know this because Jesus is spoken of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world rev13:8

Correct, God's plan to bring a love Gift to His Son was established before the world began. Nothing about individual election.

In other words Jesus already took upon Himself the role of mediator and surety before creation and the fall could take place.

Agree

Also when God tells Jeremiah that before I formed you in the womb, I ordained you to be a prophet to the nations...you do not puzzle over that do you? Or Psalm 139 when it says thine eyes did see my substance being yet informed. We love that when explaining why abortion is murder, it why not when we consider salvation.

Because we are conflating several different ideas here. Jeremiah was called to be a prophet...does not necessitate a calling for salvation. Balaam was a prophet of God. And Judas was an apostle.

 

[loDebar]

It reminds me a a person who missed class one day asking questions of about the same material already covered.
I will endeavor to recover the key points from other threads

 

[JonShaff]

Those who oppose Calvinism will agree that we are predestined to holiness, adoption , glorification, etc.. They balk at salvation being God's choice however.

Even when a person "calls upon the Lord" to be saved, it is still HIS CHOICE to save them. Salvation is entirely up to the Lord.

 

[MB]

So only Paul and his companions were chosen before the foundation of the world, when the whole letter describes the whole church being built into a Holy temple,an household of faith, the very body of Christ? Paul and his companions were blessed by this election, but everyone else has to fend for themselves? The text does not indicate that anywhere. The us is the believers being built together eph3:9-11

I suppose we will have to disagree then, enough said.
MB

 

[loDebar]

it is not "before the foundation of the world" as in" time " but in front of, like speaking before an assembly so that everyone sees the speaker.

 

[HankD]

it is not "before the foundation of the world" as in" time " but in front of, like speaking before an assembly so that everyone sees the speaker.

Baloney! That makes no sense at all in any of the uses of from the foundation of the world

ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (same Greek phrase) but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself (notice this text juxtaposes since with end proving it IS TIME).

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, (ibid #2) but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Where did you learn your Greek!?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

You state that your idea that the bible teaches free will causes you to deny God's election unto salvation.

No, sir. I stated, "Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election." I readily affirm that God elects us to salvation. He elects all those who submit to His plan of salvation which is attained by the means of repentance and faith.

Obviously if the philosophical idea of a free will is false...you would be letting this false idea hinder your study of the teaching.

That is why I do not base my beliefs on a philosophical idea but rather a biblical truth.

This idea of man accepting God first is directly opposed to the whole teaching that man be a rebellious sinner who does not seek God .

This is human logic. God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)

That idea is not In this text anywhere.

I am not basing my doctrine on this one, isolated passage.

Those who oppose Calvinism will agree that we are predestined to holiness, adoption , glorification, etc.. They balk at salvation being God's choice however.

Several years ago, I answered an ad in the local paper to begin working at a state prison that was being built in my hometown. I took the initiative to accept this job offer. However, it was predestined that, after I accepted this offer, I would wear a specific uniform. My grooming habits must conform to their standards. I had an expectation of faithfulness and loyalty to the job. The Christian life is no different (although I know any analogy is perfect).

To do that this text must be avoided, read backwards from verse13 down to verse 3...or all these other tricks, rather than just submitting to what God says.

No tricks, Brother, just rightly dividing the Word of God. As I stated above, God's Word does not contradict itself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Even when a person "calls upon the Lord" to be saved, it is still HIS CHOICE to save them. Salvation is entirely up to the Lord.

No one calls upon the lord except He has already sought them and drew them in by gospel means

 

[JonShaff]

No one calls upon the lord except He has already sought them and drew them in by gospel means

I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying I agree that God chooses, regardless of how we look at it.

 

[loDebar]

Baloney! That makes no sense at all in any of the uses of from the foundation of the world

ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (same Greek phrase) but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself (notice this text juxtaposes since with end proving it IS TIME).

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, (ibid #2) but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Where did you learn your Greek!?

It is not in every usage of the phrase. Some are accurate as used as in
Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before thefoundation of the world.

was Jesus slain before the word was formed or that every eye shall see Him as a slain Savior?

It is not a Greek problem but English, remember there is no punctuation in Greek

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Some have incorrectly assign the phrase toward individual salvation when it clearly is not but it is God choosing a way to save many by His action before the world was included in saving sinners.

 

[Iconoclast]

These existed before eternity?
It's my understanding, the Father Gave the Son the nations as His Inheritance (Psalms 2) and it does not indicate which individuals, just simply a group of people (Which we now know to be the Church).


No, John 6 does not "Clearly" say that. John 6 is talking about the present living Sheep of God.


Correct, God's plan to bring a love Gift to His Son was established before the world began. Nothing about individual election.


Agree


Because we are conflating several different ideas here. Jeremiah was called to be a prophet...does not necessitate a calling for salvation. Balaam was a prophet of God. And Judas was an apostle.

I am making a delivery then going to pick up a load so can only answer with the short phone texts. I used Jeremiah and psalm 139 not to Conflate anything but to remind us that God knows us from as eternity.
We existed in the mind of God from eternity past.
So Jesus is both mediator and surety for the elect before we were born, before sin and death took place.
Now God the Father did give the nations to the Son. Everyone has to agree on that. Scripture CV clarifies the objects of His love as the Children who are scattered abroad the whole earth. Jn11:50-52.
Jon and Pastor Bob I am observing that both of you are huddled in a defensive bunker ,more trying to defend than to consider. I get that. I think we all do that from time to time. However to move forward we have to work through the verses

before defending ...just a thought.
Both of you and the others seem nervous that we are not concerned with man being responsible before God. But we share that concern.
Now Jon you agree that the Father has purposed to give a love gift to the Son?
Do you think it was going to be a box of chocolate ? OR ACTUAL PERSONS THAT ARE WHOM HE FOREKNEW?
I Know you avoid individual election at all costs, and I think this passage shows that reluctance.
The passage does not say the Father gave the Son a big train and anyone who puts themselves on the train by their supposed free will...its not in the text anywhere

 

[HankD]

It is not in every usage of the phrase. Some are accurate as used as in
Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before thefoundation of the world.

was Jesus slain before the word was formed or that every eye shall see Him as a slain Savior?

It is not a Greek problem but English, remember there is no punctuation in Greek

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Some have incorrectly assign the phrase toward individual salvation when it clearly is not but it is God choosing a way to save many by His action before the world was included in saving sinners.

Please, go back to school.

 

[JonShaff]

Do you think it was going to be a box of chocolate ? OR ACTUAL PERSONS THAT ARE WHOM HE FOREKNEW?
I Know you avoid individual election at all costs, and I think this passage shows that reluctance.
The passage does not say the Father gave the Son a big train and anyone who puts themselves on the train by their supposed free will...its not in the text anywhere

Of course, the Gift is actually persons, but most importantly--it is the Church--the bride of Christ.

And without delay, i will concur that i avoid individual election being imposed into a text, as i believe it's eisegesis. But, at the same time, if it is proven to be correct exegesis, i will hopefully, by the grace of God, lay down my pride and agree with what you assert

I like your train analogy

 

[loDebar]

Please, go back to school.

It is not a matter of education but believing the scripture rather than man.

 

[Dave G]

Even when a person "calls upon the Lord" to be saved, it is still HIS CHOICE to save them. Salvation is entirely up to the Lord.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying I agree that God chooses, regardless of how we look at it.

I find these interesting, Jon...tell me more.

And without delay, i will concur that i avoid individual election being imposed into a text, as i believe it's eisegesis. But, at the same time, if it is proven to be correct exegesis, i will hopefully, by the grace of God, lay down my pride and agree with what you assert

 

[HankD]

It is not a matter of education but believing the scripture rather than man.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,

Hello MB,
I am on my laptop now let me expand on the responses a bit...

I believe God chose certain people for certain purposes

Agreed

Paul was one of those

.

Agreed

So were the disciples.

Agreed

So are a lot of missionaries and pastors and teachers[/QUOTE].
Agreed
We can agree on several things MB.. What I see you posting is a list of people you say are called for a purpose, Paul, disciples, missionaries, pastors, and teachers.
Now are they called only to fulfill a purpose, or does God call the whole man to the Whole Christ? Why if you grant these persons such a Divine calling, would the average rank and file Christian be excluded from what is descriptive of the saints?
My question is is the calling in Eph .2:8-10 not valid for us because we were not members of the Reformed Baptist church of Ephesus?
When chapter 4 instructs them to be transformed walking as new men, living in the light, in chapter5, loving their wives, standing in the full armor of God, would you say that was only for them present at that time?

The word "us" should refer to those prresent at that time

.
Are you sure it was only for them at that time?

The word "us" is not all-inclusive.

If it was true for the Ephesians, why would it not be true for us?