EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

[loDebar]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

i agree , rightly dividing . That is not blaming another for our decisions , even God

 

[HankD]

i agree , rightly dividing . That is not blaming another for our decisions , even God

Speakest thou of thy self John Alden?

 

[loDebar]

Speakest thou of thy self John Alden?

I know the reference. buy not your point

I do not understand how changing an avatar make one different.

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,

I would like to expand on this answer that I offered before

It is clear that I do not believe this passage is teaching that we are predestinated to salvation (as defined by Calvinism); so, I thought it would be good if I shared my opinion as to what I believe this passage is teaching.

Again, I am thankful you own your position and offer it for examination, or correction, or instruction. If you are mostly correct then it will benefit or correct us who see it differently. If on the other hand we have found the truth and set it before you, the Spirit will let you know in time.

Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election. [/QUOTE
This is a core disagreement. When men make choices that does not equal free will to me;
here is a google definition of the idea of free will.
the definition of free will
noun

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision:You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will;
This article is about the philosophical questions of free will. For other uses, see Free will (disambiguation).

A photo showing a boy jumping into a body of water. It is widely believed that humans make decisions (e.g. jumping in the water) based on free will.
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.[1][2]

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition. Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame. There are numerous different concerns about threats to the possibility of free will, varying by how exactly it is conceived, which is a matter of some debate.

Some conceive free will to be the capacity to make choices in which the outcome has not been determined by past events. Determinism suggests that only one course of events is possible, which is inconsistent with the existence of free will thus conceived.[3] This problem has been identified in ancient Greek philosophy[4]and remains a major focus of philosophical debate. This view that conceives free will to be incompatible with determinism is called incompatibilism and encompasses both metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus free will is at least possible, and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus free will is not possible. It also encompasses hard incompatibilism, which holds not only determinism but also its negation to be incompatible with free will and thus free will to be impossible whatever the case may be regarding determinism.

In contrast, compatibilists hold that free will is compatible with determinism. Some compatibilists even hold that determinism is necessary for free will, arguing that choice involves preference for one course of action over another, requiring a sense of how choices will turn out.[5][6] Compatibilists thus consider the debate between libertarians and hard determinists over free will vs determinism a false dilemma.[7] Different compatibilists offer very different definitions of what "free will" even means and consequently find different types of constraints to be relevant to the issue. Classical compatibilists considered free will nothing more than freedom of action, considering one free of will simply if, had one counterfactually wanted to do otherwise, one could have done otherwise without physical impediment. Contemporary compatibilists instead identify free will as a psychological capacity, such as to direct one's behavior in a way responsive to reason, and there are still further different conceptions of free will, each with their own concerns, sharing only the common feature of not finding the possibility of determinism a threat to the possibility of free will.[8]

When I said your position was philosophical this is what I was speaking of. We both know you have no verse of scripture that says mans will is free. You imply such because of verses that say choose and yet a person makes choices every day but that does not mean their will is free.

I believe that we are most certainly predestined, just not for salvation.

I do not leave salvation out of the mix Bob, because the scripture includes it.

We (all of God's children) are predestined to holiness.

Agreed

Once we accept God's free gift of salvation, we are predestined, chosen in Him before the foundations of the world, to be holy and blameless as children of God.

So the way I read your post, and not yours only is.... Man and not God does the choosing.
I would recommend the Potters Freedom by James White to get an accurate description of many of the texts those who oppose these teachings will offer

Ephesians 2:10 adds that we were predestined, as a child of God, to good works. "

Yes agreed, I just believe the teaching that this is part of biblical salvation that was all included in our predetermined salvation, not that we predestine ourselves by what we choose.

II Thessalonians 2:13 clearly tells us that our election to salvation is contingent upon our "belief of the truth." "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (KJV).

Again our belief of the truth was ordained by God from the beginning...as it says, so of course when the Spirit quickens us and gives the new heart we believe.

I Peter 1:2 teaches that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Foreknowledge of our belief of the truth.

Except scripture does not say that. You have added that.When God looked down from Heaven He saw that no one believed in Him or sought Him, no ,not one.psalm14

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (KJV).[

Do you notice the Cals do not add to the scriptures for them to say the Calvinistic truth?

 

[Iconoclast]

I suppose we will have to disagree then, enough said.
MB

Mb, I would ask you to continue to interact here. I think this can be sorted out. We are in no rush. Let's take time to raise more questions and understand accurately what we believe and do not believe based on the texts. We all want truth I think.

 

[Iconoclast]

Even when a person "calls upon the Lord" to be saved, it is still HIS CHOICE to save them. Salvation is entirely up to the Lord.

Jon,
I do not think God has to choose to save now. He has already chosen to save all He can save. It is not up for grabs, but fixed and certain.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,

No, sir. I stated, "Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election."

Could you give 3 or 4 examples of scripture you think illustrates this point. I do not know of one that teaches the will of fallen man being free from the bondage to the reigning power of sin.

I readily affirm that God elects us to salvation.

You do not really in that you have God waiting and reacting to man...then responding to man

He elects all those who submit to His plan of salvation which is attained by the means of repentance and faith.

So again man decides and God then does something? This is not found anywhere

That is why I do not base my beliefs on a philosophical idea but rather a biblical truth.

You post that,but your posts have a voice of their own

I am not basing my doctrine on this one, isolated passage.

I question your view because without you adding ideas, or reading the passages from back to front, the conclusions do not follow.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

Of course, the Gift is actually persons, but most importantly--it is the Church--the bride of Christ.

Did you laugh when I suggested the box of chocolate?

And without delay, i will concur that i avoid individual election being imposed into a text, as i believe it's eisegesis. But, at the same time, if it is proven to be correct exegesis, i will hopefully, by the grace of God, lay down my pride and agree with what you assert

I have already had to do that with my end times view. It is not easy.

I like your train analogy

I was afraid you would like it being a "free will" baptist

 

[JonShaff]

Did you laugh when I suggested the box of chocolate?

I did! LoL!

I have already had to do that with my end times view. It is not easy.

As I have myself

I was afraid you would like it being a "free will" baptist

Nothing to be afraid of

 

[HankD]

I know the reference. buy not your point

I do not understand how changing an avatar make one different.

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

loDebar you are a good guy brother, but IMO you need to get a formal education to perfect yourself (or at least a disciplined study of the word).

Entirely possible today because of the World Wide Web.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Do you notice the Cals do not add to the scriptures for them to say the Calvinistic truth?

On the contrary, it has been my experience that they redefine words to support their positions. It is quite convenient to say, "just accept what the passage says" and then change it elsewhere to fit the narrative.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Could you give 3 or 4 examples of scripture you think illustrates this point. I do not know of one that teaches the will of fallen man being free from the bondage to the reigning power of sin.

You, my brother, are asking me to support a position that I have never argued. This is a classic strawman. Please show me where I asserted what you state above. God sovereignly giving us the freedom to either choose or accept His free gift of salvation, that is offered to all, is in no way proclaiming that a man (saved or lost) can ever be "free from the bondage and reigning power of sin."

You do not really in that you have God waiting and reacting to man...then responding to man

No, sir. What I have is God placing an "if" in our path and simply keeping His promise when we meet that conditional "if." God does not react, but He does respond. (II Chronicles 7:14; Jeremiah 33:3)

So again man decides and God then does something? This is not found anywhere

It is found throughout the Word of God, my friend. You need look no further than the Garden of Eden.
Adam was clearly given a command and then the freedom of choice to obey or disobey. Unfortunately, he chose to disobey. Adam decided and God then did something - He did what He said He would do if Adam disobeyed and ate from the tree.

You post that,but your posts have a voice of their own

Perhaps you could refute my posts with Scripture instead of Wikipedia.

I question your view because without you adding ideas, or reading the passages from back to front, the conclusions do not follow.

Thank you for your friendly interaction. I'm quite certain that we will not solve this issue anytime soon. It has been a pleasure discussing these issues with you, my friend.

 

[loDebar]

loDebar you are a good guy brother, but IMO you need to get a formal education to perfect yourself (or at least a disciplined study of the word).

Entirely possible today because of the World Wide Web.

should we compare degrees at this point?
Error exists for a purpose, predestination impugns God

 

[HankD]

should we compare degrees at this point?

No, that is not wise - there is always someone higher or lower than yourself.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[HankD]

Error exists for a purpose, predestination impugns God

If "predetermination" impugns God why these verses?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Your errors:

1.) You probably meant to say " IMO, the calvinistic version of predestination impugns God".
2.) It seems you have assumed I am a Calvinist - I am not.
3.) If # 1 is true , you offer no reason or scripture whatsoever for this statement.

It is no wonder folks pay you little or no attention.
I am trying to help you discipline your thoughts and hemenuetic method.

Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation, of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.
Modern hermeneutics includes both verbal and non-verbal communication as well as semiotics, presuppositions, and previous understandings.

 

[MB]

Mb, I would ask you to continue to interact here. I think this can be sorted out. We are in no rush. Let's take time to raise more questions and understand accurately what we believe and do not believe based on the texts. We all want truth I think.

It would be futile to try and change my beliefs about this verse;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I admit God has chosen us just as this verse says and this is what I believe of His choosing. It's explained in this passage.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

It seems to me that Calvinist may believe that this predestination in Eph.1:4 has an effect on men that causes men to become saved. I believe men come to Christ because they are drawn. predestination is not that which draws men.

What happened when Christ was lifted up was that Him being lifted up drew all men unto Him.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Not just a particular few but everyone is drawn. Not just Calvinist or the so called elect few

I do not believe men are elected to Salvation but drawn to it. Salvation is all up to God. He draws us. His Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel convinces us of Him Self. This convincing is how and why we believe unto Salvation. At this juncture the man either accepts what he has found out by this preaching or rejects it. Yes men do reject Christ. Judas did. most of the Jews still do reject Christ Nicodemus did. when Nicodemus asked Christ how a man can be born again.. IMHO It is ridiculous to assume man has no choice in his Salvation
To say we have no choice can be found no where is scripture. To say we are elect confuses our choosing with the Jewish elect. We have not replace the Jews nor will we ever.
.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Salvation is as easy as taking your next breath. We just have to receive the story of Christ as truth.
Yes it's that simple. Some call it easy believe ism.
Some believe we have to work for it. Some believe we have to work to keep it. Some believe they don't even have to believe it's automatic.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

It would be futile to try and change my beliefs about this verse;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I admit God has chosen us just as this verse says and this is what I believe of His choosing. It's explained in this passage.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

It seems to me that Calvinist may believe that this predestination in Eph.1:4 has an effect on men that causes men to become saved. I believe men come to Christ because they are drawn. predestination is not that which draws men.

What happened when Christ was lifted up was that Him being lifted up drew all men unto Him.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Not just a particular few but everyone is drawn. Not just Calvinist or the so called elect few

I do not believe men are elected to Salvation but drawn to it. Salvation is all up to God. He draws us. His Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel convinces us of Him Self. This convincing is how and why we believe unto Salvation. At this juncture the man either accepts what he has found out by this preaching or rejects it. Yes men do reject Christ. Judas did. most of the Jews still do reject Christ Nicodemus did. when Nicodemus asked Christ how a man can be born again.. IMHO It is ridiculous to assume man has no choice in his Salvation
To say we have no choice can be found no where is scripture. To say we are elect confuses our choosing with the Jewish elect. We have not replace the Jews nor will we ever.
.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Salvation is as easy as taking your next breath. We just have to receive the story of Christ as truth.
Yes it's that simple. Some call it easy believe ism.
Some believe we have to work for it. Some believe we have to work to keep it. Some believe they don't even have to believe it's automatic.
MB

Thanks for clarifying your understanding MB. I have to work into the night so I am not sure when I can examine it a bit more, but I will.

 

[Iconoclast]

On the contrary, it has been my experience that they redefine words to support their positions. It is quite convenient to say, "just accept what the passage says" and then change it elsewhere to fit the narrative.

I have not seen that except to clarify what a text is offering.
Jn3:16 is an example...it is everyone believing.

 

[JonShaff]

I have not seen that except to clarify what a text is offering.
Jn3:16 is an example...it is everyone believing.

Acts of the Apostles 16:31 --Believe is a verb and it is an imperative.

 

[Yeshua1]

It would be futile to try and change my beliefs about this verse;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I admit God has chosen us just as this verse says and this is what I believe of His choosing. It's explained in this passage.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

It seems to me that Calvinist may believe that this predestination in Eph.1:4 has an effect on men that causes men to become saved. I believe men come to Christ because they are drawn. predestination is not that which draws men.

What happened when Christ was lifted up was that Him being lifted up drew all men unto Him.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Not just a particular few but everyone is drawn. Not just Calvinist or the so called elect few

I do not believe men are elected to Salvation but drawn to it. Salvation is all up to God. He draws us. His Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel convinces us of Him Self. This convincing is how and why we believe unto Salvation. At this juncture the man either accepts what he has found out by this preaching or rejects it. Yes men do reject Christ. Judas did. most of the Jews still do reject Christ Nicodemus did. when Nicodemus asked Christ how a man can be born again.. IMHO It is ridiculous to assume man has no choice in his Salvation
To say we have no choice can be found no where is scripture. To say we are elect confuses our choosing with the Jewish elect. We have not replace the Jews nor will we ever.
.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Salvation is as easy as taking your next breath. We just have to receive the story of Christ as truth.
Yes it's that simple. Some call it easy believe ism.
Some believe we have to work for it. Some believe we have to work to keep it. Some believe they don't even have to believe it's automatic.
MB

Natural man receives not the things of God that are spiritual, so unsaved man will exercise their 'free will" to say no to Jesus...