Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

[Yeshua1]

How can you call truth prejudice? You are blinded to your pet theology

I don't think I can waste any more time with you

It is good to dialog with each otrger, jusy do not gte into the ole "you are noted saved, teach heresy: nonsense that comes across at times out on the internet!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is good to dialog with each otrger, jusy do not gte into the ole "you are noted saved, teach heresy: nonsense that comes across at times out on the internet!

Your point being?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your point being?

we need to try to stop sliding into anger rants and labeling the saved as heretics or teaching heresy,,,, I as a Calvinist must see non cals saved in Christ as my brethren, same way other side!

 

[Tsalagi]

Your comments cannot be serious? I have never read anywhere in the Bible, where anyone speaks of being told about entering the "promised millennial kingdom"! The verb ἀγωνίζομαι is used for a contest, in which much effort is made, and is contrasted with ζητέω (seek), which is for a casual desire! Jesus in Matthew, which is the corresponding passage to Luke, says, "13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (7). Are you saying that "Narrow Way" that Jesus says, "leads to life", is not "eternal life"? Regardless of theology, and any difficulty in the passage in Luke, it is very clear, that the sinner is NOT "passive", as some assume, in their salvation!

I share your view that sinners are able (and therefore accountable) to respond to God's provision of salvation through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ through faith and faith alone. That fact is made clear in many passages of scripture, but Luke 13:24 is not one of them. If ἀγωνίζομαι represents effort, eternal salvation cannot be predicated upon it. Nobody here believes in salvation by works, and ἀγωνίζομαι is clearly human effort.

Matthew 7 and Luke 13 are instructions to believers for living by faith, the reward for which is entrance into and possession of the millennial kingdom (the audience here being OT saints); in neither chapter is Jesus making an evangelistic appeal through a presentation of Himself as the one and only object of faith for eternal salvation. Context, context, context.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I share your view that sinners are able (and therefore accountable) to respond to God's provision of salvation through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ through faith and faith alone. That fact is made clear in many passages of scripture, but Luke 13:24 is not one of them. If ἀγωνίζομαι represents effort, eternal salvation cannot be predicated upon it. Nobody here believes in salvation by works, and ἀγωνίζομαι is clearly human effort.

Matthew 7 and Luke 13 are instructions to believers for living by faith; in neither chapter is Jesus making an evangelistic appeal through a presentation of Himself as the one and only object of faith for eternal salvation. Context, context, context.

Read my latest thread on a w pink

 

[SavedByGrace]

we need to try to stop sliding into anger rants and labeling the saved as heretics or teaching heresy,,,, I as a Calvinist must see non cals saved in Christ as my brethren, same way other side!

Much of so called reformed theology on salvation I would consider as heresy

 

[Yeshua1]

Much of so called reformed theology on salvation I would consider as heresy

And yet you kept quoting repentance from the classic reformed viewpoint as being the correct way to see it?

 

[SavedByGrace]

And yet you kept quoting repentance from the classic reformed viewpoint as being the correct way to see it?

note that I used the word, "much" and not "all"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

And yet you kept quoting repentance from the classic reformed viewpoint as being the correct way to see it?

are you saying that the so called "classic reformed viewpoint" is wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

are you saying that the so called "classic reformed viewpoint" is wrong?

No, just that if Reformed theology is so bad, why quote us at all?

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, just that if Reformed theology is so bad, why quote us at all?

because most of you guys on here are from the "Reformed" position. So it is always good to quote your own to you!

 

[Tsalagi]

Read my latest thread on a w pink

I did read your post, and I agree that the relationship between repentance and faith is an interesting and important question. I don't see how that issue bears on the meaning of ἀγωνίζομαι in Luke 13:24, unless you are somehow associating the verb with repentance. If so, and you are saying that repentance requires human effort, I commend to your attention 1 Timothy 6:12 where the same imperative form is used, translated "fight." "Fighting" or "striving" to repent and believe for eternal salvation is salvation by works, and since I am sure that is not your view I don't see how Pink helps to resolve the question.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I did read your post, and I agree that the relationship between repentance and faith is an interesting and important question. I don't see how that issue bears on the meaning of ἀγωνίζομαι in Luke 13:24, unless you are somehow associating the verb with repentance. If so, and you are saying that repentance requires human effort, I commend to your attention 1 Timothy 6:12 where the same imperative form is used, translated "fight." "Fighting" or "striving" to repent and believe for eternal salvation is salvation by works, and since I am sure that is not your view I don't see how Pink helps to resolve the question.

What do you think of Bill Mounce on Luke 13:24

“Do your best (agōnizesthe | ἀγωνίζεσθε | pres mid imperative 2 pl) to go in through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will try to go in and not be able."

Our English word "agonize" comes from ἀγωνίζομαι, which I believe should be, the state of the sinner when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins. Paul speaks of "godly sorrow". My reference to Pink is because he describes this well in his article.

 

[Tsalagi]

What do you think of Bill Mounce on Luke 13:24

“Do your best (agōnizesthe | ἀγωνίζεσθε | pres mid imperative 2 pl) to go in through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will try to go in and not be able."

"Try really hard to enter" into eternal salvation? Sorry, I personally really don't see how that helps.

Our English word "agonize" comes from ἀγωνίζομαι, which I believe should be, the state of the sinner when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins. Paul speaks of "godly sorrow". My reference to Pink is because he describes this well in his article.

Anytime people start importing ideas into a passage that are neither in the verse nor its surrounding context I begin to suspect that theological persuasion is driving interpretation instead of the other way around. For me such an approach isn't acceptable.

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Try really hard to enter" into eternal salvation? Sorry, I personally really don't see how that helps.


Anytime people start importing ideas into a passage that are neither in the verse nor its surrounding context I begin to suspect that theological persuasion is driving interpretation instead of the other way around. For me such an approach isn't acceptable.

sounds like you are fighting against the Word of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

sounds like you are fighting against the Word of God!

Might be your understanding of the passage that he is rejecting!

 

[Tsalagi]

sounds like you are fighting against the Word of God!

I am fighting against misuse of the Word of God. If you interpret a passage to make Jesus say we must expend personal effort to enter into eternal life, "doing our best" to obtain it, I am certainly going to object. Would you seriously consider changing your handle to "Saved by doing my best"? ;-)

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am fighting against misuse of the Word of God. If you interpret a passage to make Jesus say we must expend personal effort to enter into eternal life, "doing our best" to obtain it, I am certainly going to object. Would you seriously consider changing your handle to "Saved by doing my best"? ;-)

all of your reasoning even from the Greek, has not answered what Jesus plainly says in Luke 13:24, and the corresponding passage in Matthew. All you have done is give your "theology", which is against what the Bible actaully does say!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Might be your understanding of the passage that he is rejecting!

then show from the words of Jesus in Luke 13:24, where it says that sinners are "passive" in their salvation, which is reformed theology?

 

[Tsalagi]

all of your reasoning even from the Greek, has not answered what Jesus plainly says in Luke 13:24, and the corresponding passage in Matthew. All you have done is give your "theology", which is against what the Bible actaully does say!

"My theology" is that the Bible does not teach salvation by works. That is the theology I have defended in this verse, it is what the Bible actually does say, and I am puzzled that you think I am saying anything else.

I have dealt exclusively with what Jesus plainly says in this context, which is "Strive/struggle/endeavor/fight" to enter the kingdom. If personal effort is being commanded, then the kingdom cannot represent eternal salvation; that interpretation would put Jesus' words in conflict with any number of other clear passages of Scripture that salvation is "not of works." Every other imperative expressed by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 7 and Luke 13 is a command to believers to pursue godly living, (look 'em up); not one constitutes an evangelistic appeal to lay hold of eternal salvation by faith in Himself, and certainly not by "striving to enter."