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Ephesians 2:8-9
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Do they need to agree with your interpretation to be considered a "heavyweight?
Why would I want to detach faith from salvation? As one commentator notes, even if the point is conceded that the phrase "this is not of yourselves" is in reference to faith, it doesn't contradict an Arminian's view on the subject since most Arminians affirm that faith comes from God, in that we must receive the appeal of the gospel sent by God in order to have faith in Christ. So, to say that faith is from God is not contradictory to the Arminian perspective; only to say saving faith is irresistibly applied would be contradictory and this verse doesn't say enough to support that view. (nor does any verse in all of scripture, for that matter)
So you ARE agreeing that faith itself is a Gift from God, and that it is not of/in ourselves?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Saving faith comes by hearing GOD'S inspired truth, not irresistibly so, but still as a direct result of God's work. In that sense, faith is FROM GOD.
Not mentioning "irresistible faith" just saying if you agreed that faith is given us to respond tot he Gospel when we hear it by God!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Allow me to ask you a question to help you see this from my perspective, ok?
Did God give you the faith to believe that George Washington was our first president?
P.S. Please don't take this question as my desire to fully equate saving faith with the belief in other historical facts, because that is not my intent. My intent is to show that every ability we have is "of God" as He is our creator and while that ability has been granted to all people, not all people believe such truths. Why? Because they are free not to. The given ability doesn't make it a necessity for free moral creatures. This is one of the things that separates our choices from the instinctive choices of an animal.
Think that we can ALL have "faith" placed in general revelation ideas like historical figures/facts, but salvation in category by irself, special revelation of/from God though!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Can you show me the chapter and verse which explains the distinction between faith in one historical figure and the claims he makes about himself and the faith in the historical figure named Jesus and his claims about himself?
(again, remember, I'm not attempted to fully equate the two as noted above)
Just saying here that it is TWO seperate areas here...
We can believe that jesus was alive, claimed to be Messiah, even rose from the dead etc but that is mentally agreeing with facts...
To have FAITH in Him from both heart and head, need to be spritually alive first, that is the Act of God
God uses the Gospel read/herad to bring sinners unto saints, and those who are are the elect of God, as he does a work "enabling" them to receive the Word and to be fruitful in hearing of it
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I'm sorry, but this is all over the place theologically. The Bible, and more specifically, the NT, is one book, and if you find repentance in two or three places, that is quite enough to establish it as a doctrine. The epistles were written to believers for crying out loud. They are instruction for those who have already repented and trusted in Christ. Why on earth would Paul or whoever tell those who have already done so to repent??
Hear the opening words of our Lord's ministry: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). Whom was He addressing? Everyone! Whoever was in earshot. What more do you need? If you won't accept our Lord's own words as doctrine.......words fail me.
In the epistles, the only place you are likely to find a reference to repentence is where Paul is giving a summary of his teaching. Obviously you find repentance as the very centre of Paul's preaching to both Jew and Gentile in Acts 26:20, but if you use that as a template you can also find a reasonably large hint of it in 2Cor 5 ("Be reconciled to God") and also in Col 1:28 ("Warning every man....").
In 1Cor 5 we have the immoral man to be cast out of the church, but in 2Cor 2:5ff,it seems clear that the man has repented and is to be restored.
In a later post, DHK writes,
God give new birth to the unregenerate, after which they repent and trust in Christ. Now; is it possible for someone to be born from above by the Spirit of Almighty God and then reject Christ? I say no (eg. 1Peter 1:3-5), and if you want to argue about Heb 6 & 10, it would be better to open another thread.
Steve
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Right, I understand. So, what is to prevent a person who has mentally agreed with these facts from repenting and believing in Him as Lord and Savior?
From scripture...
In the Epistles though...
Doesn't BOTH peter and Paul tell us that God is the one that grants repentance to those saved by Him, in order to lead them to faith in jesus Christ?
And is "spiritually dead" same as "Just" being in a broken relationship with God, isn't it literally dead in our inner spirit? And that God has to "wake us up?"
Repent means to turn from believeing falsehood to believeing truth. Look in the NT and this is what you will see.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
What false belief did the Pharisees and Sadducees need to turn or repent from? From believeing they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham. Many people believe they are saved because they were raised in a "Christian" family, or because they belong to a "Christian" church. You can not inherit salvation, and this is what John the Baptist was telling these Pharisees and Sadducees they needed to repent of.
Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
What false belief did these persons need to turn from (repent)? The false belief that when misfortune happens to people, this is proof they are wicked sinners. This is exactly what Job's friends concluded, that he had committed some great sin, and this is why God (but it was really Satan) had afflicted him. And just because no great calamity had happened to these persons did not prove they were alright with God. Jesus said they needed to realize that they too were just as sinful as these unfortunate people, if they did not realize this and come to God for mercy, they would likewise perish.
So, repentance means to turn from the idea and belief that you are righteous, confessing your sinfulness and trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
What false belief did the Pharisees and Sadducees need to turn or repent from? From believeing they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham. Many people believe they are saved because they were raised in a "Christian" family, or because they belong to a "Christian" church. You can not inherit salvation, and this is what John the Baptist was telling these Pharisees and Sadducees they needed to repent of.
Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
What false belief did these persons need to turn from (repent)? The false belief that when misfortune happens to people, this is proof they are wicked sinners. This is exactly what Job's friends concluded, that he had committed some great sin, and this is why God (but it was really Satan) had afflicted him. And just because no great calamity had happened to these persons did not prove they were alright with God. Jesus said they needed to realize that they too were just as sinful as these unfortunate people, if they did not realize this and come to God for mercy, they would likewise perish.
So, repentance means to turn from the idea and belief that you are righteous, confessing your sinfulness and trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
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1. The book of Romans Paul wrote the believers at Rome whom he had never met. It was a treatise on soteriology. It is the most comprehensive book on the doctrine of salvation in the Bible. There is more written on salvation in that one book then in all the gospels and the book of Acts put together. Have you never heard of the "Romans Road," and why it is a popular way for believers to share the gospel to unbelievers?
2. One of the most concise descriptions of the gospel "by the which you are saved," is given in 1Cor.15:1-4. No clearer definition of the gospel is given then in those four verses right there.
3. Yes the epistles were written to believers, as was every book of the Bible written to believers. I don't know one book of the Bible that was written to the unsaved, do you?
The message is pre-cross. Christ hadn't died yet. Look where the gospel is defined in 1Cor.15:1-4. The gospel (good news), is that Christ died, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures. That is what the gospel is. In the message you are quoting Christ had not yet atoned for our sins. It was a message for the Jews. It wasn't everyone. He was speaking to the Jews. He was offering the Kingdom, something that he would only offer to the Jews. But they rejected it, and Him.
The epistles teach that both Jew and Gentile are one and that there is no difference. We don't see that difference so clearly in Acts. One is reconciled to God by putting their faith in Christ.
Yes, the immoral man was a believer. Believers should be repenting of their sins every day to keep in fellowship with God. This has nothing to do with salvation. See 1John 1:9. This believer had a serious sin that he needed to repent of in order to be restored to the church. That didn't mean he was not saved. It has nothing to do with salvation.
That is what you believe. I don't believe that, and I fail to find that in Scripture. The new birth and salvation are simultaneous.
How is a person born again.
1Pet.1:23 It says specifically "being born again of the word of God."
One is born again by faith in the word of God (the message of God's Word).
I believe what the Bible says even if it goes against yours or Calvin's reasoning. God said his ways are higher than your ways. His thoughts are higher than your thoughts.
The actual salvation moment is when a person puts their faith in Christ, and Christ saves them. It is Christ that saves.
Gospel means good news.
What was the "gospel" in Abraham's time?
He believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)
The question you asked was based on those in the Gospels (RE: Jews before Christ had died). This was still an OT message. John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets.
After Christ died the message of salvation is the same for the Jews as it is for the Gentiles. There is only one way for salvation--through the shed blood of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.
Basically true.
No, John wanted to see fruit of repentance. He wanted to see change. John's message of repentance to the Jews was different because his audience was different. His audience was to the elect of God--the Jews. They had not at that time rejected the Messiah, neither the kingdom that he was offering. They were still the elect of God. The message of repentance to a believer is different than to an unbeliever.
This passage is often used out of context. Jesus is referring to a specific incident. Why did these specific people die? Why not them? Where they greater sinners than those bearing the news? No they weren't. Jesus was simply using the illustration to tell them that all were sinners; all have sinned. Again the message is OT, to the Jews, to the elect of God.
This is false, though partly right. It never means confessing your sins, not for the unbelievers. How can an unbeliever confess his sins. He can't even remember them all much less confess them. Confessing sin should be done on a daily basis by a believer (1John 1:9) in order to maintain a right relationship with God. But it is an impossible act for an unbeliever to do.
Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God.
At one time a person was rebellious toward God.
He puts his faith in Christ (repents). His attitude is changed.
Now Christ is not only Savior but Lord. His attitude toward God has changed.
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