Eschatology? (Attempt 2)

[Iconoclast]

As I understand preterism it denies the resurrection of the dead and the bodily return of Jesus Christ. I believe that to be grossly contrary to Scripture.

I can accept partial preterism which concedes the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of all the dead followed by the general judgment as well as the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

this article touches on this;
http://postmillennialismtoday.com/2014/02/26/hyperpreterisms-empty-proof-text/

 

[JamesL]

Premillennial, Posttribulation here.

I see no reason to think the church wouldn't go through a tribulation. God didn't remove Israel from Egypt during the plagues. Israel was suffering tribulation at the hands of Pharaoh, just like the man of sin will make war with the saints during the Tribulation.

Then immediately after the Tribulation, the trumpet sounds, and the elect are gathered (Matt 24:29-31)

However, I wouldn't say my view is set in concrete with anchor bolts. Pretty firmly convinced, with an acute awareness that I could be very wrong.

He is coming back, literally and bodily, for sure. And we will rise literally and physically, for sure

 

[prophet]

Premillennial, Posttribulation here.

I see no reason to think the church wouldn't go through a tribulation. God didn't remove Israel from Egypt during the plagues. Israel was suffering tribulation at the hands of Pharaoh, just like the man of sin will make war with the saints during the Tribulation.

Then immediately after the Tribulation, the trumpet sounds, and the elect are gathered (Matt 24:29-31)

However, I wouldn't say my view is set in concrete with anchor bolts. Pretty firmly convinced, with an acute awareness that I could be very wrong.

He is coming back, literally and bodily, for sure. And we will rise literally and physically, for sure

This view comes from the Scripture.

You have to be taught otherwise by man.

Now watch everyone stop at the end of I Thes. 4, for the rest of your life.

 

[percho]

This is pretty good for me:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father (after destroying every rule and every authority and power.)

Paul is very simple: Jesus comes back, resurrection takes place (see above posts about general judgment), and then the end comes w/ God being all in all (iow eternity begins).

No rapture in that passage. No tribulation, no millenium. It seems like the Kingdom is consumated when Jesus comes back. It seems that the end is ushered in when Jesus comes back. There is no need for 1,007+ years in between.

Let me ask. And BTW I am asking for I am not sure.

We understand the underlined above. But what is that in bold? Then comes the end and that in bold.

Assuming death is the gateway into Hades and we see in Rev 20 death and Hades are emptied and back to 1 Cor 15:26 death is destroyed. How is that relative to that in bold or is it?

 

[kyredneck]

Preterifuturihistoriiamil.

....But I am only dogmatic on a future and literal return of Christ. You can look to the book of Revelation for that.

Can you pinpoint chapter & verse in the narration of Revelation where the physical return occurs?

 

[percho]

No need for a literal 1,000 years then. Like the rest of the Apocalypse, that is one picture of victory... the victory of Jesus on the cross over Satan. The entire book is replete w/ figures of victory. I just preached a sermon on victory in Revelation. Satan bound is a picture of defeat. Jesus wins. But don't make the figure walk on all fours.

I do not think you can just disregard:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:7,8

Ezek 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Have they been back for a thousand years before Gog and Magog, are drawn down by God (see V4E38) through the deception of Satan (V8R20)?

 

[webdog]

Pre-mil, pre-trib. Besides seeing no other scenario that fits the longing for the blessed hope we have, Jesus' words concerning the days of Noah and Lot and how the righteous were handled in both hold weight, IMO.

 

[percho]

Preterifuturihistoriiamil.



Can you pinpoint chapter & verse in the narration of Revelation where the physical return occurs?

Rev 3:21, 5:10, 11:11,15,18

The best I can do. May not be good enough but I did try.

 

[Greektim]

I do not think you can just disregard:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:7,8

Ezek 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Have they been back for a thousand years before Gog and Magog, are drawn down by God (see V4E38) through the deception of Satan (V8R20)?

Considering the genre of Rev and its (and the genre of apocalyptic at large) use of Ezekiel, I have no problem taking this not literally but as another picture of the victory of Jesus & God. It doesn't have to walk on all 4's. The idealistic interpretation is that Jesus wins. Apocalyptic was never a forecast of the future, especially in the way literalist make it. Therefore, the Apocalypse, the quintessential of late 1st century apocalyptic literature would be read in that light. It conforms to a genre mold and so must we when we attempt to interpret it.

 

[percho]

Considering the genre of Rev and its (and the genre of apocalyptic at large) use of Ezekiel, I have no problem taking this not literally but as another picture of the victory of Jesus & God. It doesn't have to walk on all 4's. The idealistic interpretation is that Jesus wins. Apocalyptic was never a forecast of the future, especially in the way literalist make it. Therefore, the Apocalypse, the quintessential of late 1st century apocalyptic literature would be read in that light. It conforms to a genre mold and so must we when we attempt to interpret it.

Well in that context I guess one could just disregard.

But I think it is more to it than just saying, Jesus wins.

Concerning, eschatology and the book of Revelation relative to 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. How would you outline the book?

What is the chronology of, the things which are, as a beginning for the outline?

A. 65 AD, B. 95 AD, or C. maybe even an unspecified date as of, the things which are, being the day of the Lord? D. All the previous E. None of the previous

 

[OldRegular]

Preterifuturihistoriiamil.



Can you pinpoint chapter & verse in the narration of Revelation where the physical return occurs?

Scripture is full of the promise of the Second Coming, the defeat and destruction of Satan and death, the bodily resurrection of the dead, and the judgment. If we can't believe these promises how can we believe the promise of Salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

Well in that context I guess one could just disregard.

But I think it is more to it than just saying, Jesus wins.

Concerning, eschatology and the book of Revelation relative to 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. How would you outline the book?

What is the chronology of, the things which are, as a beginning for the outline?

65 AD, 95 AD, or maybe even an unspecified date as of, the things which are, being the day of the Lord?

Misapplying a strict chronology to Revelation 1:19 has caused more problems than it has answered, in particular the "hereafter".

 

[kyredneck]

Scripture is full of the promise of the Second Coming, the defeat and destruction of Satan and death, the bodily resurrection of the dead, and the judgment. If we can't believe these promises how can we believe the promise of Salvation?

I'll rephrase the question for those that didn't understand or are prone to jump to conclusions:

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15

Pinpoint to me chapter & verse in Rev where the above 'coming' occurs?

 

[Luke2427]

What are your views on Eschatology and why?


Scripture please!

I am, like most Christians were before WWI back through the Reformation, a Postmillennialist.

The great missionaries of the Modern Missions Movement were largely postmil. Men like William Carey, Adoniram Judson, etc...

The Puritans and those who first tamed the New World were Postmil.

The preachers of the Great Awakening were postmil. Men like Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, John Wesley.

We believe Christ meant what he said when he said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

We believe he meant what he said when he said, "The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed... the smallest of seeds at first.. but grows to be the largest of herbs."

We believe that the rock that struck the image in the feet (during the Roman Empire) in Daniel was indeed Christ and that it will do what Daniel said- It will expand until it fills the whole earth.

We believe the Church, via the compassionate work of the preaching and ministering the Gospel, will fulfill the Great Commission and make disciples of the nations and that Christ through the church will fulfill the commission given to Adam that he failed to do- Multiply and fill the earth with the image of God and subdue it.

 

[OldRegular]

I'll rephrase the question for those that didn't understand or are prone to jump to conclusions:

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15

Pinpoint to me chapter & verse in Rev where the above 'coming' occurs?

I can pinpoint you numerous promises where the above coming occurs. If He returns before I go to be with Him I will then pinpoint that event for you! Best I can do at this time. However, I can show you seven places in the Book of Revelation that do picture His Return.

Of course if you want to study Revelation 21, 22 you will see a description of events that occur after the Second Coming! Then Revelation 20:11-15 pictures the White Throne judgment with Jesus Christ on the throne!

 

[percho]

I'll rephrase the question for those that didn't understand or are prone to jump to conclusions:

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15

Pinpoint to me chapter & verse in Rev where the above 'coming' occurs?

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 11:11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
1 Thes 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A simultaneous event?

 

[percho]

Misapplying a strict chronology to Revelation 1:19 has caused more problems than it has answered, in particular the "hereafter".

I picked those dates for you know who.

 

[Revmitchell]

When "ad populum" fallacies are employed it usually means that those who use them are insecure with their position.

 

[percho]

I edited the chronology post.

 

[kyredneck]

When "ad populum" fallacies are employed it usually means that those who use them are insecure with their position.

Rev, just come out and say what you mean, don't beat around the bush. I haven't the slightest idea who you are addressing or what you meant. Cease the 'stealth ad hominem'.

What about answering my question about pinpointing the coming of Christ in Revelation? Where does He physically step foot on terra firma?