Eschatology? (Attempt 2)

[percho]

Scripture, not perceived conditions in the world at any time, should determine the doctrine of the Second Coming.

I agree there is reason for Jesus saying pray, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as.

Do we see any evidence of the will of God being done on the earth today being greater than it was done say in the year 1000?

There is reason for; For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:19-22

Are the pains getting less or greater?

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:15-17

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

A witness of the coming bad or a witness of the coming good?

 

[OldRegular]

Note the proximity of the passage to 'shortly come to pass' and 'the time is at hand'.

Don't you claim to be partial preterist?

Partial preterist only that I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is part of the prophecy in Matthew 24! I believe part of Matthew 24 has to do with the Second Coming.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree there is reason for Jesus saying pray, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as.

Do we see any evidence of the will of God being done on the earth today being greater than it was done say in the year 1000?

There is reason for; For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:19-22

Are the pains getting less or greater?

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:15-17

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

A witness of the coming bad or a witness of the coming good?

Tell you the truth I simply don't know. The history of the so-called Christian world has been a mess since the time of Jesus Christ and right now I see it getting worse because of apostasy and the spread of Islam!

 

[kyredneck]

Partial preterist only that I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is part of the prophecy in Matthew 24! I believe part of Matthew 24 has to do with the Second Coming.

The holy grail, sacred cow, 'second coming'. It's derived from:

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

He came 'the second time' unto deliverance from persecution to those Christian Jews by breaking the horn of their persecutors, 66-70 A.D.

The NEXT coming:

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15

 

[OldRegular]

The holy grail, sacred cow, 'second coming'. It's derived from:

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

He came 'the second time' unto deliverance from persecution to those Christian Jews by breaking the horn of their persecutors, 66-70 A.D.

The NEXT coming:

23....Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15

The Second Coming as you call it was simply the promised judgment on the Jews, not the Coming at the end of time as we know it. It is then that the General Resurrection will take place followed by the White Throne judgment. Satan and his own will be cast into the lake of fire and God will tabernacle with the Saints in the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

[kyredneck]

The Second Coming as you call it was simply the promised judgment on the Jews.....

So, whatever you want to call it, have these 'comings' occurred yet according to your system?:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

 

[OldRegular]

So, whatever you want to call it, have these 'comings' occurred yet according to your system?:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

The Kingdom that the Jews thought was exclusively theirs was not.

I believe that Jesus Christ said: Luke 17:21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. So it appears that Matthew 16:28 has happened!

There may also be some reference to the destruction of Jerusalem here?

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

There is no record of anyone seeing this so I must believe it has not happened yet!

 

[kyredneck]

Gill agrees Mt 26:64 has been fulfilled:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1942783#post1942783

And I'm about fizzled out here.

You're no partial preterist, that's for certain. Not even close to one, you should drop any notion that you are, completely.

 

[OldRegular]

Gill agrees Mt 26:64 has been fulfilled:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1942783#post1942783

Gill is good but not inerrant!

And I'm about fizzled out here.

You're no partial preterist, that's for certain. Not even close to one, you should drop the notion that you are, completely.

According to Sproul {The Last Days According to Jesus, page 157} a partial preterist is one who sees the prophecy of 70AD in Matthew 24 which I do, yet believes in the visible return of Jesus Christ in the future. It doesn't really bother me that I am not a partial preterist. Most people haven't the foggiest idea what that is anyhow, or a full preterist!

 

[kyredneck]

So what does Sproul say about these 'comings'?:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Gill is good but not inerrant!

Bite your tongue OR! :laugh:

According to Sproul {The Last Days According to Jesus, page 157} a partial preterist is one who sees the prophecy of 70AD in Matthew 24 which I do, yet believes in the visible return of Jesus Christ in the future. It doesn't really bother me that I am not a partial preterist. Most people haven't the foggiest idea what that is anyhow, or a full preterist!

As hardshells, should we care what Sproul thinks? Note he is a Presbyterian, and a Fullerist. I wouldn't doubt he also agrees with his son on both baptizing & giving communion to baby's (you put the stuff in the blender with formula & applesauce) :laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

Hey, Sproul's soteriology is closer to PBs than other Calvinists, he holds to immediate regeneration.

I'm very interested to know what Sproul has to say about those 'comings' I listed, that is if OR will do it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey, Sproul's soteriology is closer to PBs than other Calvinists, he holds to immediate regeneration.

I'm very interested to know what Sproul has to say about those 'comings' I listed, that is if OR will do it.

Be my guest.....but your playing with fire.

 

[kyredneck]

????

How so playing with fire? Me no understand.

 

[Grasshopper]

So what does Sproul say about these 'comings'?:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/last_days_according_to_jesus/crisis-in-eschatology/

If you download his podcasts off iTunes he has several on eschatology.

 

[OldRegular]

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/last_days_according_to_jesus/crisis-in-eschatology/

If you download his podcasts off iTunes he has several on eschatology.

Probably nothing wrong with Sproul that a good dunkin would not help!

 

[Rippon]

As hardshells, should we care what Sproul thinks?

Don't be so dismissive.

Note he is a Presbyterian, and a Fullerist.

Define your terms. Do you mean he absorbs the teachings of Andrew Fuller,Daniel Fuller or simply Fuller Theological Seminary?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

????

How so playing with fire? Me no understand.

I'm assuming you have examined the Andrew Fuller group in detail and you are aware of their hidden agenda. My brother, that agenda will have longer reaching consequences (if achieved) . Of cource I am being purposefully vague so as to not to incur the wrath of the Presbyterians ....but hopefully you understand my concerns.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Probably nothing wrong with Sproul that a good dunkin would not help!

You are dealing with a Presbyterian OR and I don't have to tell ya the differences. Step gingerly across that minefield....and wear a flack jacket:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rippon]

I'm assuming you have examined the Andrew Fuller group in detail and you are aware of their hidden agenda.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about EWF? Andrew Fuller (1754-1815) is usually brought up negatively by Gospel Standard folks.

Are you confusing him with Daniel Fuller?