Eschatology? (Attempt 2)

[percho]

Rev, just come out and say what you mean, don't beat around the bush. I haven't the slightest idea who you are addressing or what you meant.

What about answering my question about pinpointing the coming of Christ in Revelation? Where does He physically step foot on terra firma?

Shoot, I had to Goggle and determined he could not be speaking of me relative to any post I have ever made in this forum. Well maybe any post.

 

[OldRegular]

When "ad populum" fallacies are employed it usually means that those who use them are insecure with their position.

I have always said that a person should learn something new each day. I owe you for this one RM!

Argumentum ad Populum (popular appeal or appeal to the majority):
The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude. There are several variations of this fallacy, but we will emphasize two forms.

* "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society thinks or believes.

(There are many non-fallacious appeals in style, fashion, and politics--since in these areas the appeal is not irrelevant.)

Person L says statement p or argument A.
Person L is in the elite.
Statement p is true or argument A is good.


* "Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.

Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
Statement p is true.


* "appeal to emotion": the fallacy of using expressive and emotively laden language to arouse emotion in support of a conclusion.

Emotions such as enthusiasm, pride, anger, or disgust are used to express evidence for statement p
Statement p is true.​

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html

Of course I am not enamored with philosophy, especially when used to interpret Biblical revelation!

 

[OldRegular]

Where does He physically step foot on terra firma?

I am not sure He ever sets foot on "terra firma" as currently constituted. Consider Revelation 20:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[convicted1]

I am not sure He ever sets foot on "terra firma" as currently constituted. Consider Revelation 20:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[kyredneck]

I am not sure He ever sets foot on "terra firma" as currently constituted....

But the dispies believe it.

Is there not one dispie here who will step forward and answer the question?

 

[Grasshopper]

As I understand preterism it denies the resurrection of the dead and the bodily return of Jesus Christ. I believe that to be grossly contrary to Scripture.

I can accept partial preterism which concedes the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of all the dead followed by the general judgment as well as the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

That sermon series is a partial-preterist view.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I am not sure He ever sets foot on "terra firma" as currently constituted. Consider Revelation 20:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You consider one of the minor prophets.

Zechariah 14, NASB
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled , but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

Has this prophecy been fulfilled yet?
Has the Mount of Olives been split asunder yet?
Has the Lord personally entered into battle with the world's armies gathered to destroy Jerusalem?

No.
No.
And no.

That is during the Tribulation. You know, that event the amillennialists say isn't a future event.

 

[OldRegular]

You consider one of the minor prophets.

Zechariah 14, NASB
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled , but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

Has this prophecy been fulfilled yet?
Has the Mount of Olives been split asunder yet?
Has the Lord personally entered into battle with the world's armies gathered to destroy Jerusalem?

No.
No.
And no.

Why do you want to interpret this Scripture literally yet refuse to interpret John 5:28, 29 literally? All the above passage from Zechariah is obviously not to be taken literally unless you expand on Oral Roberts statement about the height of Jesus Christ

Verses 1 and 2 above could easily be a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That being said much of the language is obviously apocalyptic and should not be literally interpreted any more that parts of Ezekiel or Revelation. Surely you do not believe that The LORD GOD has to engage in a physical battle with HIS enemies?

And I would suspect that in 70AD the people of Jerusalem believed they were in great TRIBULATION, wouldn't you? Then again why would the LORD be fighting against those who come against Jerusalem, He did not in 70AD and the Jews are not HIS people. They still reject HIM!

That is during the Tribulation. You know, that event the amillennialists say isn't a future event.

Tribulation is not a future event! The LORD told us: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[kyredneck]

...I can show you seven places in the Book of Revelation that do picture His Return....

Would you? I mean if it's not too much trouble. I'm sincerely curious to know this.

 

[Grasshopper]

You consider one of the minor prophets.

Zechariah 14, NASB
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled , but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

Has this prophecy been fulfilled yet?
Has the Mount of Olives been split asunder yet?
Has the Lord personally entered into battle with the world's armies gathered to destroy Jerusalem?

No.
No.
And no.

That is during the Tribulation. You know, that event the amillennialists say isn't a future event.

http://americanvision.org/1699/zechariah-history-prophecy-part-3/#sthash.CUxTD5cJ.dpbs

 

[OldRegular]

Would you? I mean if it's not too much trouble. I'm sincerely curious to know this.

I wish I could claim credit for the following but I can't. I do give credit where credit is due but since I don't have permission from the publishers i may have to suffer the consequences! I did expand on the parallelisms for a SS class I was teaching on Revelation.

Parallelism in The Book of Revelation

In the Book of Revelation the number seven is prominent. There are the letters to the seven churches, the seven blessings, the opening of the seven seals, the sounding of the seven trumpets, and the pouring out of the seven vials. An examination of the events that occur during each of these latter three events shows a description of phenomena that are clearly associated with the return of Jesus Christ and the final judgment, specifically the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17], the sounding of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19], and the pouring out of the seventh bowl [Revelation 16:17-21]. It is reasonable, therefore, to assume that the events disclosed with the seals, trumpets, and vials are concurrent in history. This is the premise that some expositors make to aid in the interpretation of the Revelation. Furthermore, each successive series of events is broader in scope and may take on an increased intensity. A term ‘progressive parallelism’ has been used to describe this observation. The question then becomes, to what extent is this parallelism present in the book and does this concept indeed aid our understanding of the book?

Hendriksen [More Than Conquerors, page 21] and Kistemaker [Revelation, page 11] see seven parallel sections in the Book of Revelation and identify the parallel sections as follows:

1. Chapters 1-3 Christ in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.

2. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.

3. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.

4. Chapters 12-14 The woman and the man-child persecuted by the dragon
and his helpers [the beast and the harlot].

5. Chapters 15-16 The seven bowls of wrath.

6. Chapters 17-19 The fall of the great harlot and of the beasts.

7. Chapters 20-22 The judgment upon the dragon [Satan] followed by the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem.

On page 35 Hendriksen writes regarding the increased intensity of events described in the various sections:

So although all the sections of the Apocalypse run parallel and span the period between the first and Second Comings of Christ and are rooted in the soil of the old dispensation, yet there is also a degree of progress. The closer we approach the end of the book the more our attention is directed to the final judgment and the events beyond it. The seven sections are arranged, as it were, in ascending climactic order. The book reveals a gradual progress in eschatological emphasis.

The New Geneva Study Bible, page 2005 {now the Reformation Bible] gives a slightly different division for the parallel sections, again based on seven cycles of judgment, but limiting these cycles to events in Chapters 4 through 20. Their divisions are as follows for the cycles of Judgment[30] {I took the liberty of providing the textual description.}:

A Chapters 1-3 Christ and the seven churches.

B Chapters 4-20

1. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.

2. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.

3. Chapters 12-14 The Church in tribulation and triumph.

4. Chapters 15-16 The seven vials of wrath.

5. Chapters 17-19:10 The harlot and the Bride.

6. Chapter 19:11-19:21 The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

7. Chapter 20 The Victory of the Lamb.

C. Chapters 21-22: The new heaven and earth and the glory of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Each of these seven parallel sections, the approach taken in this study, lead to a description of the Second Coming as shown in the following paragraphs. I believe the divisions shown in the New Geneva Bible are more in line with the Revelation than those of Hendriksen or Kistemaker who include the seven letters to the seven Churches and Chapters 21 and 22 in the seven cycles.

The first such picture in Revelation occurs at the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17]. The terror of those under judgment, the complete despair of those who have rejected the grace of God, as manifested in the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ, will be held in common by all classes of man and is best described by the words: hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As terrible as is the picture presented the reality of God’s final judgment will be far worse than language can convey.

The second such picture of the end of the age occurs at the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19] when it is announced: The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ. Voices ring out, the praise of all the host of heaven, the great multitude, the four beasts, and the twenty four elders. The coming of the Kingdom brings the resurrection to life, the Blessed Hope, of those who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. However, those who have rejected the grace of God, who have trampled underfoot the Blood of the Covenant, who have loved darkness rather than light will learn that death is no escape. Theirs is the resurrection to judgment, the ultimate woe, the second death, the lake of fire.

The third such picture of the end of the age is shown by the dual harvest [Revelation 14:14-20]. The first harvest, by the Son of Man, is that of ones who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who have persevered, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will sing the new song, the song of redemption. These will enter into the joy of the Lord. Their redemption is complete. The second harvest is in stark contrast to the first. A command is given and the vine with its fully ripe grapes is reaped and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. With the thrust of the sharp sickle the wrath of God is visited on all unrighteousness.

The fourth such picture of the end of the age occurs when the seventh vial, the final cup of the wrath of God is poured out [Revelation 16:17-21. The voice of God comes from the throne within the temple saying It is done. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found signifying the final shaking of the heavens and the earth [Hebrews 12:26, 27]. The great harlot, Babylon, is judged.

The fifth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:1-10] contrasts the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, the glory Church, the New Jerusalem, with the judgment of that great harlot, Babylon, the counterfeit church and the bride of the antichrist

The sixth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:11-21] shows the return of the One who is Faithful and True, the Word of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to execute judgment upon the beast, the false prophet, and those who bear the mark of the beast in the battle of that great day of God Almighty [Revelation 16:14] at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon [Revelation 16:16].

The seventh picture [Revelation 20: 7-10] of the end of the age presents a second account of the ‘battle’ of Armageddon. Satan is released to gather the ‘nations’ to battle against the camp of the saints, the beloved city. The nations, referred to as Gog and Magog , encompass the camp of the Saints, the beloved city. Here, as in Ezekiel 38 & 39, Gog and Magog represent the opposition of the world to the people of God. It is very likely, as some expositors believe, that the account in Ezekiel is prophetic of the battle of Armageddon. The camp of the saints and the the beloved city are the people of God, the Church, who are alive on earth. The battle is not a physical battle between the Church and the forces of Satan. Neither is it a physical battle between the returning Saviour with His army and Satan with his army. Rather this is a spiritual battle in which the outcome is certain: fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them . We see pictured here the final defeat and judgment of Satan, he is cast into the lake of fire.

Other expositors define parallelism primarily in the context of the seals, the trumpets, and the vials. Here the parallelism is much more obvious, and each sequence clearly ends with a reference to the return of Jesus Christ as indicated above. These expositors generally see the intervening chapters as interludes between the events related to the seven seals, trumpets, and vials.

The concept of progressive parallelism is not inconsistent with the New Testament teaching on the expectancy of the soon return of Jesus Christ. It is true that certain signs will precede His coming, but that coming is not limited by our inability to properly interpret those signs. I believe that when the last of the elect is brought into the household of faith, the Church, then Jesus Christ will return in all the Glory of the Triune Godhead.

 

[OldRegular]

I would add one fInal comment for clarification, I hope. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ until His return. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ defeated Satan, that is pictured in Revelation 20 as the binding of Satan, the further limitation of his power until that time wham he is cast into the lake of fire.

Hebrews 2:14. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[Greektim]

I would add one fInal comment for clarification, I hope. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ until His return. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ defeated Satan, that is pictured in Revelation 20 as the binding of Satan, the further limitation of his power until that time wham he is cast into the lake of fire.

Hebrews 2:14. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I think that is exactly the pictoral power of Rev. 20: Satan has been defeated, Jesus is victorious (seen many times already in Rev.), now all that is left is the final judgment.

 

[percho]

I would add one fInal comment for clarification, I hope. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ until His return. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ defeated Satan, that is pictured in Revelation 20 as the binding of Satan, the further limitation of his power until that time wham he is cast into the lake of fire.

Hebrews 2:14. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I think that is exactly the pictoral power of Rev. 20: Satan has been defeated, Jesus is victorious (seen many times already in Rev.), now all that is left is the final judgment.

I would like to ask especially concerning that in red; He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil.The devil being Satan, that old serpent, of the garden I assume.

What initiated the destruction of him that had the power of death and what, shall we say, is the final nail of that destruction?

Consider:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:15
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Romans 16:20

Can he, who had the power of death, be utterly destroyed before the saying comes to pass that is written?
Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory? from 1 Cor 15:54,55

Thoughts relative to Revelation 20??

 

[kyredneck]

I am, like most Christians were before WWI back through the Reformation, a Postmillennialist.

The great missionaries of the Modern Missions Movement were largely postmil. Men like William Carey, Adoniram Judson, etc...

The Puritans and those who first tamed the New World were Postmil.

The preachers of the Great Awakening were postmil. Men like Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, John Wesley.

We believe Christ meant what he said when he said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

We believe he meant what he said when he said, "The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed... the smallest of seeds at first.. but grows to be the largest of herbs."

We believe that the rock that struck the image in the feet (during the Roman Empire) in Daniel was indeed Christ and that it will do what Daniel said- It will expand until it fills the whole earth.

We believe the Church, via the compassionate work of the preaching and ministering the Gospel, will fulfill the Great Commission and make disciples of the nations and that Christ through the church will fulfill the commission given to Adam that he failed to do- Multiply and fill the earth with the image of God and subdue it.

Postmil sounds good! It's positive. It's optimistic and encouraging, in stark contrast to the end times theology that the majority hold to. A poisoned world view:

"In a lecture Darby gave in Geneva in 1840, he publicly stated:

“What we are about to consider will tend to show that, instead of permitting ourselves to hope for a continued progress of good, we must expect a progress of evil; and that the hope of the earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord before the exercise of His judgment, and the consummation of his judgment on the earth, is delusive. We are to expect evil, until it becomes so flagrant that it will be necessary for the Lord to judge it…”

Unfortunately, the adoption of a worldview through the eyes of Darby, instead of the eyes of Jesus, causes us to rejoice over all the wrong stuff.

When we embrace fundamentalist end-times theology, we’re forced to celebrate bloodshed and violence, instead of celebrating the events which remind us that we serve the “Prince of Peace”. Every bomb that gets dropped in the middle east, every earthquake which kills thousands in Pakistan, every tsunami that wipes out countless lives in Asia, becomes a beautiful sign of the end....."

 

[OldRegular]

Postmil sounds good! It's positive. It's optimistic and encouraging, in stark contrast to the end times theology that the majority hold to. A poisoned world view:

"In a lecture Darby gave in Geneva in 1840, he publicly stated:

“What we are about to consider will tend to show that, instead of permitting ourselves to hope for a continued progress of good, we must expect a progress of evil; and that the hope of the earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord before the exercise of His judgment, and the consummation of his judgment on the earth, is delusive. We are to expect evil, until it becomes so flagrant that it will be necessary for the Lord to judge it…”

Unfortunately, the adoption of a worldview through the eyes of Darby, instead of the eyes of Jesus, causes us to rejoice over all the wrong stuff.

When we embrace fundamentalist end-times theology, we’re forced to celebrate bloodshed and violence, instead of celebrating the events which remind us that we serve the “Prince of Peace”. Every bomb that gets dropped in the middle east, every earthquake which kills thousands in Pakistan, every tsunami that wipes out countless lives in Asia, becomes a beautiful sign of the end....."

Scripture, not perceived conditions in the world at any time, should determine the doctrine of the Second Coming.

 

[kyredneck]

....The concept of progressive parallelism is not inconsistent with the New Testament teaching on the expectancy of the soon return of Jesus Christ......

I would expect not!

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10:37

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

 

[OldRegular]

I would expect not!

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10:37

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

This has not happened yet, has it?

 

[kyredneck]

Note the proximity of the passage to 'shortly come to pass' and 'the time is at hand'.

Don't you claim to be partial preterist?

 

[Greektim]

I wish I could claim credit for the following but I can't. I do give credit where credit is due but since I don't have permission from the publishers i may have to suffer the consequences! I did expand on the parallelisms for a SS class I was teaching on Revelation.

Parallelism in The Book of Revelation

In the Book of Revelation the number seven is prominent. There are the letters to the seven churches, the seven blessings, the opening of the seven seals, the sounding of the seven trumpets, and the pouring out of the seven vials. An examination of the events that occur during each of these latter three events shows a description of phenomena that are clearly associated with the return of Jesus Christ and the final judgment, specifically the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17], the sounding of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19], and the pouring out of the seventh bowl [Revelation 16:17-21]. It is reasonable, therefore, to assume that the events disclosed with the seals, trumpets, and vials are concurrent in history. This is the premise that some expositors make to aid in the interpretation of the Revelation. Furthermore, each successive series of events is broader in scope and may take on an increased intensity. A term ‘progressive parallelism’ has been used to describe this observation. The question then becomes, to what extent is this parallelism present in the book and does this concept indeed aid our understanding of the book?

Hendriksen [More Than Conquerors, page 21] and Kistemaker [Revelation, page 11] see seven parallel sections in the Book of Revelation and identify the parallel sections as follows:

1. Chapters 1-3 Christ in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.

2. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.

3. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.

4. Chapters 12-14 The woman and the man-child persecuted by the dragon
and his helpers [the beast and the harlot].

5. Chapters 15-16 The seven bowls of wrath.

6. Chapters 17-19 The fall of the great harlot and of the beasts.

7. Chapters 20-22 The judgment upon the dragon [Satan] followed by the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem.

On page 35 Hendriksen writes regarding the increased intensity of events described in the various sections:



The New Geneva Study Bible, page 2005 {now the Reformation Bible] gives a slightly different division for the parallel sections, again based on seven cycles of judgment, but limiting these cycles to events in Chapters 4 through 20. Their divisions are as follows for the cycles of Judgment[30] {I took the liberty of providing the textual description.}:

A Chapters 1-3 Christ and the seven churches.

B Chapters 4-20

1. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.

2. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.

3. Chapters 12-14 The Church in tribulation and triumph.

4. Chapters 15-16 The seven vials of wrath.

5. Chapters 17-19:10 The harlot and the Bride.

6. Chapter 19:11-19:21 The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

7. Chapter 20 The Victory of the Lamb.

C. Chapters 21-22: The new heaven and earth and the glory of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Each of these seven parallel sections, the approach taken in this study, lead to a description of the Second Coming as shown in the following paragraphs. I believe the divisions shown in the New Geneva Bible are more in line with the Revelation than those of Hendriksen or Kistemaker who include the seven letters to the seven Churches and Chapters 21 and 22 in the seven cycles.

The first such picture in Revelation occurs at the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17]. The terror of those under judgment, the complete despair of those who have rejected the grace of God, as manifested in the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ, will be held in common by all classes of man and is best described by the words: hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As terrible as is the picture presented the reality of God’s final judgment will be far worse than language can convey.

The second such picture of the end of the age occurs at the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19] when it is announced: The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ. Voices ring out, the praise of all the host of heaven, the great multitude, the four beasts, and the twenty four elders. The coming of the Kingdom brings the resurrection to life, the Blessed Hope, of those who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. However, those who have rejected the grace of God, who have trampled underfoot the Blood of the Covenant, who have loved darkness rather than light will learn that death is no escape. Theirs is the resurrection to judgment, the ultimate woe, the second death, the lake of fire.

The third such picture of the end of the age is shown by the dual harvest [Revelation 14:14-20]. The first harvest, by the Son of Man, is that of ones who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who have persevered, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will sing the new song, the song of redemption. These will enter into the joy of the Lord. Their redemption is complete. The second harvest is in stark contrast to the first. A command is given and the vine with its fully ripe grapes is reaped and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. With the thrust of the sharp sickle the wrath of God is visited on all unrighteousness.

The fourth such picture of the end of the age occurs when the seventh vial, the final cup of the wrath of God is poured out [Revelation 16:17-21. The voice of God comes from the throne within the temple saying It is done. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found signifying the final shaking of the heavens and the earth [Hebrews 12:26, 27]. The great harlot, Babylon, is judged.

The fifth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:1-10] contrasts the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, the glory Church, the New Jerusalem, with the judgment of that great harlot, Babylon, the counterfeit church and the bride of the antichrist

The sixth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:11-21] shows the return of the One who is Faithful and True, the Word of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to execute judgment upon the beast, the false prophet, and those who bear the mark of the beast in the battle of that great day of God Almighty [Revelation 16:14] at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon [Revelation 16:16].

The seventh picture [Revelation 20: 7-10] of the end of the age presents a second account of the ‘battle’ of Armageddon. Satan is released to gather the ‘nations’ to battle against the camp of the saints, the beloved city. The nations, referred to as Gog and Magog , encompass the camp of the Saints, the beloved city. Here, as in Ezekiel 38 & 39, Gog and Magog represent the opposition of the world to the people of God. It is very likely, as some expositors believe, that the account in Ezekiel is prophetic of the battle of Armageddon. The camp of the saints and the the beloved city are the people of God, the Church, who are alive on earth. The battle is not a physical battle between the Church and the forces of Satan. Neither is it a physical battle between the returning Saviour with His army and Satan with his army. Rather this is a spiritual battle in which the outcome is certain: fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them . We see pictured here the final defeat and judgment of Satan, he is cast into the lake of fire.

Other expositors define parallelism primarily in the context of the seals, the trumpets, and the vials. Here the parallelism is much more obvious, and each sequence clearly ends with a reference to the return of Jesus Christ as indicated above. These expositors generally see the intervening chapters as interludes between the events related to the seven seals, trumpets, and vials.

The concept of progressive parallelism is not inconsistent with the New Testament teaching on the expectancy of the soon return of Jesus Christ. It is true that certain signs will precede His coming, but that coming is not limited by our inability to properly interpret those signs. I believe that when the last of the elect is brought into the household of faith, the Church, then Jesus Christ will return in all the Glory of the Triune Godhead.

That battle that is outlining Revelation is quite extensive. Sometimes, it gets simplified based on the number 7 as if that is the key. Perhaps it is. But then again, perhaps there are verbal clues as well. There are as many different structures of Rev as there are scholars trying to figure it out. Quite complex.