Incorrect.
Incorrect. "I tell you, there will not be left here one stone on another, that will not be thrown down.”
There are still a lot of "stone on another."
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eschatology continued 2
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There are still a lot of "stone on another."
prophecy70
Active Member
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Dr. Tom, you are dealing with linguistic illiterates here. Keep on trying, though.
Interestingly enough, just as Hebrew and Greek both use one word for stars, planets and asteroids, some very modern languages do so also. Japanese does. Star is 星 (hoshi), which refers to anything bright in the sky, including stars and asteroids. Planet uses the same character in a compound, 惑星 (wakusei).
Wow. I leave the thread for necessary business, and find out that prophecy70 and Covenanter are denying my own statement about why I posted about K & D. I did not, repeat, did not want to discuss their take on the 70 weeks. Just go back and look at what prophecy70 and I were discussing just before that. Otherwise, I'm just going to conclude that these two can't understand plain English. Why in the world are they arguing about what I said my purpose was? Inconceivable!
Can people actually believe that I would lie about my own purpose in posting something? I mean, what in the ever-lovin', cotton-pickin', blue-eyed world would that gain me???? (That's a quote from Pogo, for the uneducated youth here.)
Can people actually believe that I would lie about my own purpose in posting something? I mean, what in the ever-lovin', cotton-pickin', blue-eyed world would that gain me???? (That's a quote from Pogo, for the uneducated youth here.)
The western wall of what? Uh, the western wall of the Temple? LOL!
The Western Wall was built by Herod in 19BC and was there and considered part of the Temple Mount by the people of that day. When Jesus referred to the Temple He included the Western Wall as part of the Temple Mount. In fact, without the Western Wall, there would have been no Temple. In 19 BC Herod began an expansion project on the Temple Mount. In addition to rebuilding and enlarging the Temple, he expanded the platform on which it stood by constructing the Western Wall, doubling the size of the Temple Mount.
Not AD 70, But Pentecost.
Possibly, but I understood the Western Wall dated from the time when the Jews tried to rebuild it under Hadrian and that the stones were reused stones and seem to have been gathered from all sorts of places.
Also Josephus said the stones were 25 cubits long. They look all different sizes and although there is nothing in that pic to compare them with and none look 25 cubits long.
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The Wars Of The Jews
Or
The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem
Book VII
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT THREE YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY TITUS TO THE SEDITION AT CYRENE
CHAPTER 1.
HOW THE ENTIRE CITY OF JERUSALEM WAS DEMOLISHED, EXCEPTING THREE TOWERS; AND HOW TITUS COMMENDED HIS SOLDIERS IN A SPEECH MADE TO THEM, AND DISTRIBUTED REWARDS TO THEM AND THEN DISMISSED MANY OF THEM.
1. NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. (1)
(1) Why the great Bochart should say, (De Phoenic. Colon. B. II. ch. iv.,) that" there are in this clause of Josephus as many mistakes as words," I do by no means understand. Josephus thought Melchisedek first built, or rather rebuilt and adorned, this city, and that it was then called Salem, as Psalm 76:2; afterwards came to be called Jerusalem; and that Melchisedek, being a priest as well as a king, built to the true God therein a temple, or place for public Divine worship and sacrifice; all which things may be very true for aught we know to the contrary. And for the word, or temple, as if it must needs belong to the great temple built by Solomon long afterward, Josephus himself uses, for the small tabernacle of Moses, Antiq. B. III. ch. 6. sect. 4; see also Antiq. B. lit. ch. 6. sect. 1; as he here presently uses, for a large and splendid synagogue of the Jews at Antioch, B. VII. ch. 3. sect. 3.
CHAPTER 2.
HOW TITUS EXHIBITED ALL SORTS OF SHOWS AT CESAREA PHILIPPI. CONCERNING SIMON THE TYRANT HOW HE WAS TAKEN, AND RESERVED FOR THE TRIUMPH.
1. NOW at the same time that Titus Caesar lay at the siege of Jerusalem, did Vespasian go on board a merchantship and sailed from Alexandria to Rhodes; whence he sailed away ,in ships with three rows of oars; and as he touched at several cities that lay in his road, he was joyfully received by them all, and so passed over from Ionia into Greece; whence he set sail from Corcyra to the promontory of Iapyx, whence he took his journey by land. But as for Titus, he marched from that Cesarea which lay by the sea-side, and came to that which is named Cesarea Philippi, and staid there a considerable time, and exhibited all sorts of shows there. And here a great number of the captives were destroyed, some being thrown to wild beasts, and others in multitudes forced to kill one another, as if they were their enemies. And here it was that Titus was informed of the seizure of Simon the son of Gioras, which was made after the manner following: This Simon, during the siege of Jerusalem, was in the upper city; but when the Roman army was gotten within the walls, and were laying the city waste, he then took the most faithful of his friends with him, and among them some that were stone-cutters, with those iron tools which belonged to their occupation, and as great a quantity of provisions as would suffice them for a long time, and let himself and all them down into a certain subterraneous cavern that was not visible above ground. Now, so far as had been digged of old, they went onward along it without disturbance; but where they met with solid earth, they dug a mine under ground, and this in hopes that they should be able to proceed so far as to rise from under ground in a safe place, and by that means escape. But when they came to make the experiment, they were disappointed of their hope; for the miners could make but small progress, and that with difficulty also; insomuch that their provisions, though they distributed them by measure, began to fail them. And now Simon, thinking he might be able to astonish and elude the Romans, put on a white frock, and buttoned upon him a purple cloak, and appeared out of the ground in the place where the temple had formerly been. At the first, indeed, those that saw him were greatly astonished, and stood still where they were; but afterward they came nearer to him, and asked him who he was. Now Simon would not tell them, but bid them call for their captain; and when they ran to call him, Terentius Rufus (2) who was left to command the army there, came to Simon, and learned of him the whole truth, and kept him in bonds, and let Caesar know that he was taken. Thus did God bring this man to be punished for what bitter and savage tyranny he had exercised against his countrymen by those who were his worst enemies; and this while he was not subdued by violence, but voluntarily delivered himself up to them to be punished, and that on the very same account that he had laid false accusations against many Jews, as if they were falling away to the Romans, and had barbarously slain them for wicked actions do not escape the Divine anger, nor is justice too weak to punish offenders, but in time overtakes those that transgress its laws, and inflicts its punishments upon the wicked in a manner, so much more severe, as they expected to escape it on account of their not being punished immediately. (3)Simon was made sensible of this by falling under the indignation of the Romans. This rise of his out of the ground did also occasion the discovery of a great number of others Of the seditious at that time, who had hidden themselves under ground. But for Simon, he was brought to Caesar in bonds, when he was come back to that Cesarea which was on the seaside, who gave orders that he should be kept against that triumph which he was to celebrate at Rome upon this occasion.
(2) This Tereutius Rufus, as Reland in part observes here, is the same person whom the Talmudists call Turnus Rufus; of whom they relate, that "he ploughed up Sion as a field, and made Jerusalem become as heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high Idaces of a forest;" which was long before foretold by the prophet Micah, ch. 3:12, and quoted from him in the prophecies of Jeremiah, ch. 26:18.
Or
The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem
Book VII
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT THREE YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY TITUS TO THE SEDITION AT CYRENE
CHAPTER 1.
HOW THE ENTIRE CITY OF JERUSALEM WAS DEMOLISHED, EXCEPTING THREE TOWERS; AND HOW TITUS COMMENDED HIS SOLDIERS IN A SPEECH MADE TO THEM, AND DISTRIBUTED REWARDS TO THEM AND THEN DISMISSED MANY OF THEM.
1. NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. (1)
(1) Why the great Bochart should say, (De Phoenic. Colon. B. II. ch. iv.,) that" there are in this clause of Josephus as many mistakes as words," I do by no means understand. Josephus thought Melchisedek first built, or rather rebuilt and adorned, this city, and that it was then called Salem, as Psalm 76:2; afterwards came to be called Jerusalem; and that Melchisedek, being a priest as well as a king, built to the true God therein a temple, or place for public Divine worship and sacrifice; all which things may be very true for aught we know to the contrary. And for the word, or temple, as if it must needs belong to the great temple built by Solomon long afterward, Josephus himself uses, for the small tabernacle of Moses, Antiq. B. III. ch. 6. sect. 4; see also Antiq. B. lit. ch. 6. sect. 1; as he here presently uses, for a large and splendid synagogue of the Jews at Antioch, B. VII. ch. 3. sect. 3.
CHAPTER 2.
HOW TITUS EXHIBITED ALL SORTS OF SHOWS AT CESAREA PHILIPPI. CONCERNING SIMON THE TYRANT HOW HE WAS TAKEN, AND RESERVED FOR THE TRIUMPH.
1. NOW at the same time that Titus Caesar lay at the siege of Jerusalem, did Vespasian go on board a merchantship and sailed from Alexandria to Rhodes; whence he sailed away ,in ships with three rows of oars; and as he touched at several cities that lay in his road, he was joyfully received by them all, and so passed over from Ionia into Greece; whence he set sail from Corcyra to the promontory of Iapyx, whence he took his journey by land. But as for Titus, he marched from that Cesarea which lay by the sea-side, and came to that which is named Cesarea Philippi, and staid there a considerable time, and exhibited all sorts of shows there. And here a great number of the captives were destroyed, some being thrown to wild beasts, and others in multitudes forced to kill one another, as if they were their enemies. And here it was that Titus was informed of the seizure of Simon the son of Gioras, which was made after the manner following: This Simon, during the siege of Jerusalem, was in the upper city; but when the Roman army was gotten within the walls, and were laying the city waste, he then took the most faithful of his friends with him, and among them some that were stone-cutters, with those iron tools which belonged to their occupation, and as great a quantity of provisions as would suffice them for a long time, and let himself and all them down into a certain subterraneous cavern that was not visible above ground. Now, so far as had been digged of old, they went onward along it without disturbance; but where they met with solid earth, they dug a mine under ground, and this in hopes that they should be able to proceed so far as to rise from under ground in a safe place, and by that means escape. But when they came to make the experiment, they were disappointed of their hope; for the miners could make but small progress, and that with difficulty also; insomuch that their provisions, though they distributed them by measure, began to fail them. And now Simon, thinking he might be able to astonish and elude the Romans, put on a white frock, and buttoned upon him a purple cloak, and appeared out of the ground in the place where the temple had formerly been. At the first, indeed, those that saw him were greatly astonished, and stood still where they were; but afterward they came nearer to him, and asked him who he was. Now Simon would not tell them, but bid them call for their captain; and when they ran to call him, Terentius Rufus (2) who was left to command the army there, came to Simon, and learned of him the whole truth, and kept him in bonds, and let Caesar know that he was taken. Thus did God bring this man to be punished for what bitter and savage tyranny he had exercised against his countrymen by those who were his worst enemies; and this while he was not subdued by violence, but voluntarily delivered himself up to them to be punished, and that on the very same account that he had laid false accusations against many Jews, as if they were falling away to the Romans, and had barbarously slain them for wicked actions do not escape the Divine anger, nor is justice too weak to punish offenders, but in time overtakes those that transgress its laws, and inflicts its punishments upon the wicked in a manner, so much more severe, as they expected to escape it on account of their not being punished immediately. (3)Simon was made sensible of this by falling under the indignation of the Romans. This rise of his out of the ground did also occasion the discovery of a great number of others Of the seditious at that time, who had hidden themselves under ground. But for Simon, he was brought to Caesar in bonds, when he was come back to that Cesarea which was on the seaside, who gave orders that he should be kept against that triumph which he was to celebrate at Rome upon this occasion.
(2) This Tereutius Rufus, as Reland in part observes here, is the same person whom the Talmudists call Turnus Rufus; of whom they relate, that "he ploughed up Sion as a field, and made Jerusalem become as heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high Idaces of a forest;" which was long before foretold by the prophet Micah, ch. 3:12, and quoted from him in the prophecies of Jeremiah, ch. 26:18.
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- Micah 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
- Jeremiah 26:18 Micah the Morasthite prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spake to all the people of Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Zion shall be plowed like a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of a forest.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Dr. Tom, you are dealing with linguistic illiterates here. Keep on trying, though.
Interestingly enough, just as Hebrew and Greek both use one word for stars, planets and asteroids, some very modern languages do so also. Japanese does. Star is 星 (hoshi), which refers to anything bright in the sky, including stars and asteroids. Planet uses the same character in a compound, 惑星 (wakusei).
Oh my, you are really beating a dead horse on that one. I don't even need to explain my self for the 400th time. I think I'm with David on this one now, Its talking about Baseball Stars falling on earth.
Linguistic Illiterates, more personal attacks from the Futurists. Ive had less attacks from evolutionists. But more from the Global warming crowd.
And by the way John, I read that K&D commentary about Daniel you sent me about the Hebrew, and the Conclusion was, Adding a Gap between the two verses is a gross interpretation of that passage. Thank you for that, it really helped me.
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prophecy70
Active Member
The western wall was not the temple. It was the wall outside the temple on the temple Mount. The prophecy is about the temple not the Temple mount. If someone were to destroy the dome of the rock they would have to destroy the wall as well because it's inside it?
Jewish Library
"When the Romans razed the Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."
Even most futurist commentaries, say that was fulfilled.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Who died before pentecost? Just asking not debating that. I could be wrong on that one yes
It was built in 19BC. It was there when Jesus made His statement.
Oh my goodness. You need to learn some honesty. You made the false claim that in order to take the word "star" literally Roby would have to believe it had to be the big ball of glowing gas type star. I showed you that is false. I showed you that the word ἀστήρ means all the heavenly bodies strewn across the heavens. I gave you an example where even in English the word can mean heavenly bodies that are not big glowing globes of gas. Then John showed the same is true in Japanese.
You claimed that Roby would have to think the "stars" of the passage in question had to be the big glowing globe of gas in order to take it literally. I showed you that is not true. The word can mean any of the heavenly bodies. But you keep ducking and dodging and trying to cover your mistake, caused by your lack of knowledge of Greek (and English!), rather than just say, "Yeah, that was not a good example of "literal" was it." Which is what an honest man would say.
prophecy70
Active Member
Cant let your assumptions go. I made a sarcastic statement about ME SAYING the stars in that passage were the Big gas type. I KNEW ROBYCOP3 didn't think that was going to happen. I may disagree with him, but he is not an idiot. you really need to stop assuming you know what I meant.
An honest man wouldn't sit there and assume what I meant. Was it a poor literal joke? Yeah probably, but thats what it was a joke. Who in the right mind would think anyone could believe actual gas stars could hit earth? This has to be the most idiotic conversation I have ever have. Let it go.
I explained it simply,
Logan (thats me) made a statement saying Do you think big gas balls could hit earth? Since he goes on a LITERAL everything. So I took what I literally explained stars in that passage to be!!! It was a sarcastic statement knowing he didn't think that or would ever think that. Do you actually think I thought star only meant that? What about people as stars? What if I asked him if he thought movie stars were going to hit earth?
I am not covering anything up, it was a poor example, but I do not think Robycop3 is an idiot, thinking that. So keep attacking me on assumptions, it doesn't bother me.
No i didn't mean robycop3 had to take star literally as the big gas type, I made a sarcastic joke about me talking star literally being the big gas type. You are way over thinking this. Calm down, it will be alright. If you want my to admit It was a stupid joke, and made little sense then fine ok. ill admit it. But good grief man, let it go. Im done talking about that. I know what I meant when I said it.
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prophecy70
Active Member
It was the retaining wall, not anything to do with the temple. The temple sat inside of the walls. The prophecy is about the destruction of the temple, not the walls out side of the temple.
By the way, visitors to the Western Wall in Jerusalem (also known as the Wailing Wall, pictured above) sometimes wonder about the accuracy of Jesus’ prediction, since the Western Wall is made of many very large stones piled on each other. There is a simple answer to this question. Jesus’ prediction was specifically about the destruction of “the Temple building"
The Western Wall (also referred to as the 'Wailing Wall') is actually the retaining wall built as part of Herod's expansion of the temple. It is...
- Not in view from while in the temple area (it's over the wall, and over the cliff)
- Not a building.
The Wailing Wall was not part of the Temple - it was part of the Temple Mount - and a giant retaining wall for the courtyard on which the Temple sat.
I don't understand why your waiting for a third temple to be built and then that wall to be torn down along with a third temple. Jesus must of confused the daylights out of everyone living in the 1st century if the bible was actually written to people living in the 21st century.
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I know what you said. If you take "star" literally you claimed it would have to be a sun type object. But you were wrong, not understanding what ἀστήρ actually means. Just admit it. You will feel a lot better.
Romans 15:4; 1 Peter 1:10-12.
prophecy70
Active Member
I agree about that, Jesus still spoke to his primary audience. Im not questioning the relevance today.
To me the Bible is full of 100% fulfilled prophecies, I don't need to look to the future for something happen yet. What Jesus said would happened did. This generation that sees this. In all of Matthew, when he said this generation it was the generation that was presently there, the generation of vipers.
B
Thank you for posting those Scripture passages.
There are times when I long for the more familiar days but don’t want to go back too far.
.
Martin,
Thank you for posting those Scripture passages.
There are times when I long for the more familiar days but don’t want to go back too far.
.- Status