eschatology continued

[prophecy70]

Odd that you keep coming up with these mistaken "facts" from somewhere on the Internet, I suppose, but in our PMs you won't believe me on a fact attested to by all scholars of eschatology, futurist or not.

What fact was that. Im 27 years old and this isn't very old to me. I have questions. I enjoy proof I can read.
If a non christian comes to you and keep asking why? and what? What do you say? If you truly feel I'm wasting your time, then alright no need to reply to me ill understand.... And the 101 verses I got from another forum, Ill let them know they are junky internet site ... I posted them all 118 and 119 of the other topic.

 

[prophecy70]

2t2 comes after 2T1 where Paul describes what is clearly the coming of the Lord Jesus for judgment of the wicked & glorification of the persecuted saints.

2T1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.​

Paul teaches that certain events must happen before that final day of the Lord:

2T2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.​

Now, as far as the Ts were concerned:
some had died (see 1T4) and Paul had assured them that they would not miss out on blessing.

1T4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus​

They were asleep in Jesus & when Jesus comes for resurrection, living & dead will be glorified, & ever with the Lord.

He had also told them that that Jesus' Olivet prophecy would be fulfilled to the uttermost:

1T2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.​

But in 2T1 they were still suffering persecution & no sign of Jesus coming to judge the unbelieving Jews.

Also Peter had to remind his readers:

2P3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?​

In Hebrews 3 & 4 we read the warning that the Jews had 40 years to enter God's rest, or would suffer God's wrath for their unbelief.

God is gracious & longsuffering, but his patience will come to an end. The Jews will NOT be allowed to continue mocking Jesus & his warnings, warnings repeated by the Apostles.

Jesus coming to judge this generation that rejected him would certainly take place as prophesied. John repeats Jesus' prophecy against those who pierced Him in Rev. 1:7. But, not only had some of the Thes. believers died, it is likely that some of the Jewish leaders had also died. Herod had had his own private judgment. (Acts 12:20-23)

Jesus had given clear signs concerning the destruction in his Olivet prophecy. Paul by inspiration adds to those signs in 2T2.

2nd peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

So would this be talking about Jerusalem or the actual end of the world?

Is that the same thing the Thes. were confused about?

2nd thes. 2:7
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Who do you think that "he" is?

 

[robycop3]

And where do you come to that conclusion in that chapter?

By the simple fact that no one but GOD could either accurately predict his coming, or hold him back.

 

[robycop3]

What about the 101 verses of the Bible saying the hour is now or he's coming quickly.... Why is that not literal?

The "quickly' here means 'rapidly', fast-moving', not "in a short time", at least from man's pointa view.

That's obvious from the fact those events haven't yet occurred.

 

[robycop3]

Because that is what he has been taught.
It is just guesswork, based on a false understanding of prophecy taken out of context and its true meaning.

• 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

This is speaking about the time they had till the flood.
But they have forgotten the beginning and build all other theories on it.
Paul told the Thessalonians what it was and it would be unthinkable if they didn't pass the information on. They did and many left it in writing. The Roman Emperor, the Who and the Empire, the What.

My conclusions have come from closely reading Scripture and long study of history. History nis shaped by Scripture, not vice versa.

The simple truth is, the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred. The coming of the 'beast' to power will be the beginning of those events, when the "buds will appear on the fig trees". Then, those events will occur within a short time of each other.

 

[robycop3]

I don't believe it says that in 2nd Thessalonians 2. I believe Jesus came in ad 70 in the way God came to judge nations in the OT. But about the ressurection and "second coming" I'm unsure. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I can see where it's literal but I can also see where it's not Like what the Thessalonians thought. They obviously didn't know it was the end of the world.

While Jesus is SPIRITUALLY present wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name (Matt. 18:20), He has NOT yet physically returned. His return will be a stupendous, glorious event, SEEN BY ALL, as He said.

But YOU say he's already returned? OK, what army did He destroy at His return? The Roman army that sacked J returned to Rome in triumph. What great ruler did He cast alive into gehenna?

HUH?

 

[Covenanter]

2nd peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

So would this be talking about Jerusalem or the actual end of the world?

Is that the same thing the Thes. were confused about?

2nd thes. 2:7
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Who do you think that "he" is?

I'm a professional chemist so I know exactly what elements are....
Until I read the Scriptural usage.

And is Peter referring to the earth or the land (of Israel) ? Same word in Greek.

I think in the context, the physical earth at final coming at the end of the present Gospel age/millennium.

But also he is answering the scoffers who are challenging Jesus' prophesied coming to destroy the city & the sanctuary - the central elements of the Old Covenant. Noah warned about the flood - & it happened; Jesus warned about the destruction in his Olivet prophecy - it would happen soon, in the lifetime of those who rejected him. Jesus also warned about the passing of heaven & earth - that will happen at an unknown time - a thousand years or a day after the rebellion, etc prophesied in 2T2. Back to 2T1.

-----
I think the "he" is James, who continued his witness in Jerusalem as the leader of the church there in the power of the Holy Spirit until he was martyred by the "powers of lawlessness". Just as Sodom continued until Lot was taken out of the way, so Jerusalem continued until the church was taken out of the way.

 

[prophecy70]

I'm a professional chemist so I know exactly what elements are....
Until I read the Scriptural usage.

And is Peter referring to the earth or the land (of Israel) ? Same word in Greek.

I think in the context, the physical earth at final coming at the end of the present Gospel age/millennium.

But also he is answering the scoffers who are challenging Jesus' prophesied coming to destroy the city & the sanctuary - the central elements of the Old Covenant. Noah warned about the flood - & it happened; Jesus warned about the destruction in his Olivet prophecy - it would happen soon, in the lifetime of those who rejected him. Jesus also warned about the passing of heaven & earth - that will happen at an unknown time - a thousand years or a day after the rebellion, etc prophesied in 2T2. Back to 2T1.

-----
I think the "he" is James, who continued his witness in Jerusalem as the leader of the church there in the power of the Holy Spirit until he was martyred by the "powers of lawlessness". Just as Sodom continued until Lot was taken out of the way, so Jerusalem continued until the church was taken out of the way.

Wow that's a different view of the he. Interesting... I believe historicist believes it is the Roman empire under the Caesers? And futurists Believe it's the HS at the rapture.

 

[prophecy70]

But YOU say he's already returned? OK, what army did He destroy at His return? The Roman army that sacked J returned to Rome in triumph. What great ruler did He cast alive into gehenna?

Link the beast with man of sin first.

 

[Covenanter]

The Second Coming of paul is still future.

I know Paul made followup visits wherever he preached the Gospel but where do you find in Scripture his future second coming???!!!???

 

[prophecy70]

The Second Coming of paul is still future.

Paul is coming as well?

 

[John of Japan]

What fact was that. Im 27 years old and this isn't very old to me. I have questions. I enjoy proof I can read.

What you don't enjoy is doing your own research, apparently. In the PM I gave you sources where you could prove (or disprove, I suppose) what I said. And again, what I said has been proven over and over, so I saw no need to prove a commonly accepted fact.

If a non christian comes to you and keep asking why? and what? What do you say? If you truly feel I'm wasting your time, then alright no need to reply to me ill understand.... And the 101 verses I got from another forum, Ill let them know they are junky internet site ... I posted them all 118 and 119 of the other topic.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What 118 and 119? What other topic?

Your problem is a typical Millennial problem: you jump from subject to subject so fast you never solve any of them. Please, by all means, develop some mental and spiritual discipline.

 

[kyredneck]

If you truly feel I'm wasting your time, then alright no need to reply to me

...lol, you might get lucky like me and he'll just put you on ignore!

 

[John of Japan]

What fact was that. Im 27 years old and this isn't very old to me. I have questions. I enjoy proof I can read.
If a non christian comes to you and keep asking why? and what? What do you say? If you truly feel I'm wasting your time, then alright no need to reply to me ill understand.... And the 101 verses I got from another forum, Ill let them know they are junky internet site ... I posted them all 118 and 119 of the other topic.

Okay, folks, I finally figured out what he is talking about here. He means the thread "Partial Preterism and Futurism," and Posts 118 and 119 are on p. 6 of that thread.

Frankly, I usually ignore such long lists of verses with no explanation--it's a pet peeve. Such lists almost always have errors of exegesis, and since they are not explained, you can't discuss them with the maker of the list.

This list is no different. None of the entries have any comments. Someone just made up their list with no apparent interaction with the side he is criticizing--the premil position. So, for example, "The Kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3:2) is listed as a time statement for the 2nd Coming. Really? Someone on the preterist side actually thinks that the premil position takes that as referring to the 2nd Coming? That's just plain ignorant.

Here's another: "Maranatha" in I Cor. 16:22. Really? Another time statement? Absolutely careless. May the Lord deliver us from such careless, thoughtless, discussions.

To prophecy70: You really need to up your game. I truly believe that the posters on the BB have higher standards of accuracy and interpretation than the other Bible discussion boards out there. At this point, you are not impressing BB denizens.

 

[John of Japan]

What fact was that. Im 27 years old and this isn't very old to me. I have questions. I enjoy proof I can read.

I'm used to my students actually listening and then working things out themselves.

If a non christian comes to you and keep asking why? and what? What do you say?

Sorry, but there is no comparison between a saved person debating prophecy with me on an Internet board, and a lost person asking me "Why?" I have given the Gospel and answered the questions of lost people countless times in the US, Japan, Africa, a Muslim country in the Far East, and other places. My life is built around the Great Commission. So don't point to any irritation I have with your posts as being somehow equivalent to a lost person coming to me seeking salvation. That's a total non sequitor.

 

[David Kent]

The simple truth is, the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred. The coming of the 'beast' to power will be the beginning of those events, when the "buds will appear on the fig trees". Then, those events will occur within a short time of each other.

The simple truth is they HAVE happened .

29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Yeshua1]

The simple truth is they HAVE happened .

29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Generation can mean race, so the Jewish people will still be here on earth when he comes back!
or that the generation alive in history at that time in the future shall the second coming event!

 

[David Kent]

Generation can mean race, so the Jewish people will still be here on earth when he comes back!
or that the generation alive in history at that time in the future shall the second coming event!

A typical futurist ploy to avoid the obvious.

 

[Yeshua1]

A typical futurist ploy to avoid the obvious.

Well, both options are just as viable as yours, per the scriptures!

 

[prophecy70]

Your problem is a typical Millennial problem: you jump from subject to subject so fast you never solve any of them. Please, by all means, develop some mental and spiritual discipline.

To prophecy70: You really need to up your game. I truly believe that the posters on the BB have higher standards of accuracy and interpretation than the other Bible discussion boards out there. At this point, you are not impressing BB denizens.

So much for coming here to actually learn, those with lower education (degree wise) on subject matters, must not be allowed in Gods kingdom anymore...