Featured Esv

Unless you will admit the ESV mistranslates the text in a manner consistent with Calvinist theology at Revelation 13:8, there is no need to show you more evidence.

Revelation 13:8 demonstrates Calvinism is mistaken because if individuals were chosen before the foundation of the world, their names would have been written before the foundation of the world.

However, the ESV mistranslation obliterates that truth.

So we get shuck and jive.

 

It might be a little more difficult but they can learn.

Rev 13:7-9
7 And it was giuen vnto him to make warre with the Saints, and to ouercome them: And power was giuen him ouer all kinreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwel vpon the earth, shall worship him, whose names are not written in the booke of life of the Lambe, slaine from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man haue an eare, let him heare:

 

Hi RL, the ESV translators saw a difference at Revelation 17:8, translating "apo" as from. Now if they had been "consistent" they would have translated "apo" as from at Revelation 13:8, but they did not. You could claim it was an innocent mistaken, brought over from the RSV, and no hidden agenda should be assumed. But to say before and after refers to the same eternity, is bogus, from the foundation of the world refers to the period from creation to the end of the age.

Unless you are able to wrap your mind around this rather simple concept, there is no need to show you more verses. One of us is wrong.

 

Think that the translators knew that it can mean either, as the idiom used in the passage that you see as slanted towards proving Calvinism actually can refer back to the thought of from eternity past!

 

So you're not going to be convinced by a single verse? Van, now is your time. If there are other tilted verses you know about, please bring them to light. I'd like to see them. Honestly. No joking. I'm sincerely asking, sir.

 

So THAT is what the perfect English version actually looks like!

 

Van would have to first show us what his creditials are to be able to sit in judgement on how those scholars translated as they chose too though!

 

Hi Jkdbuck76, Let me ask you to answer a few simple questions.

1) Do you accept that the ESV Revelation 13:8 mistranslates "apo" (from or since or after) as before?

2) Whether by accident or agenda, do you see the mistranslation as presenting the verse in a manner consistent with Calvinism?

3) Do you realize that before the foundation of the world refers to eternity before creation, and from the foundation of the world refers to from or since or after creation to the end of the age?

All three of the answers are obvious truths.

 

The ESV, NIV and NLT all mistranslate several verses in a manner consistent with Calvinist doctrine. Yet not one Calvinist will admit even to one example, such as Revelation 13:8.

Go figure.

Truth is on the side of the NASB95, the HCSB, the NKJV, and the NET.

 

I'm no Calvinist but I agree to this one example. What are the other verses?

 

Revelation 13:8

NASB95 - All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

ESV - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Revelation 13:8 (NA28)

NA27 - καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.

******************

The Greek phrase "from/before/since the foundation of the world" is not all that uncommon.
Examine how it was translated in other passages in various translations.

Matthew 13:35
NASB95 – This was[/i] to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE [ἀπὸ - apo] THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.”

ESV - This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since [ἀπὸ - apo] the foundation of the world.”

Luke 11:50
NASB95 - so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since [ἀπὸ - apo] the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,

ESV - so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from [ἀπὸ - apo] the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,

John 17:24
NASB95 - Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

ESV - Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4
NASB95 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

ESV - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Hebrews 4:3
NASB95 - For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

ESV - For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’ ” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26
NASB95 - Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

ESV - for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:20
NASB95 - For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

ESV - He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

Revelation 17:8
NASB95 - The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

ESV - The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Lexicon:

67.17 πρό; πρίν or πρὶν ἤ; ἄχρι οὗ: a point of time prior to another point of time—‘before, previous.’

‘your Father knows what you need before you ask him’ Mt 6:8.
‘before the rooster crows tonight, you will say three times that you do not know me’ Mt 26:34;
‘before the rooster crows twice tonight, you will say three times that you do not know me’ Mk 14:30.
‘just before it began to dawn’ Ac 27:33.

67.131 ἐκ; ἀπό: markers of the extent of time from a point in the past—‘since, from.’
‘he saw a man who had been blind from birth’ Jn 9:1.
‘the woman became well from that moment’ Mt 9:22;
‘this is now the third day since these things happened’ Lk 24:21.

Adapted from: Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

Is the use of "before" in Revelation 13:8 proof of blatant translational bias or just a simple translational choice?

Rob

 

The Lutherans are not Calvinists, if theological labels are important to some. The LCMS Lutheran Study Bible uses the ESV and on Rev. 13:8 the annotation is as follows:

"before the foundation of the world. Paul likewise teaches that God chose the elect for eternal salvation even before the world began (Eph.1:4; Rm8:28-30). This election was based on His grace, not on anything the recipient had done (Rm 11:5; 2Tm1:9)."

It seems to me the debate over "before" or "from" misses the point. A. T. Robertson in his Word Pictures points out the grammar from the Greek thus:

"Hath not been written (ου γεγραπτα). Perfect passive indicative of γραφω, permanent state, stands written."

What was written from/before the foundation of the world was a permanent state, stands as written... not being added to through time.

 

Not sure what your point was, Deacon. Two very different phrases are found, "from the foundation of the world, and before the foundation of the world. They are not the same phrase, one has "ano" (from, since, after) and the other has "pro" before.

John 17:24 has G4253, "pro" not G575, "apo."

Thus, Revelation 13:8 is mistranslated in the ESV.

The use of "before" is proof of mistranslation and not a choice. In no other place is "apo" translated before.

It is a translational choice to translate "apo" as either from or since, but not ever "before."

So our choice is the mistranslation by the ESV occurred by accident or agenda.

Either way, it is proof of a mistranslation consistent with Calvinism. And everyone should agree with that obvious truth.

 

Thanks for your observation. No one is saying names were not written, and therefore by inference other names were written, and that when written or not written, and that written record stands forever. If names or choices were made "before" the foundation of the world, then they would stand through time. However, no such thing occurred. Names were not written, or omitted before the foundation of the world. The names were written or omitted "from or since" the foundation of the world. That is what the inspired text actually says. So line out before and put since in your ESV.

So Paul did not, repeat did not, "likewise teach" that the elect were chosen "from or since" the foundation of the world at Ephesians 1:4, he taught contrariwise that God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

So you need to ask whoever provided that "study" bible why God would choose individuals before creation, but only write their names after creation? What if the phrase "in Him" actually means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb, the Redeemer, and so whoever Christ redeems was chosen corporately when Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world. Then it would make sense, if from or since the foundation of the world, God would choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, and write their names in the Lamb's book of Life.

I know, totally different view, made extra difficult because of the ESV mistranslation of God's word.

 

Since I'm really fond of the NLT I'm curious as to what versus you feel are Calvinist. Thanks

 

Yes, I agree.

 

So the NIV and NLT are more Calvinistic than the ESV in your view?

 

Van, you are one silly boy. Of course it would be very reasonable to ask for more than one verse from the ESV to demonstrate your tenuous thesis. It's not a deflection whatsoever --one example does not a conclusion make.