Esv

[Van]

Van, what in the world is absurd about the above? It's a legitimate question. Please answer it.

Calvinists start posting absurdity when they see that truth is not on their side.

Anything to change the subject to my behavior. That is all they have, shuck and jive.

I have made my case for the ESV being Calvinistic, by referencing Revelation 13:8. Not one Calvinist has admitted it mistranslates "apo" as "pro." Nope, they would rather change the subject. Have they addressed why the ESV has from or since at Revelation 17:8 but before at Revelation 13:8. Nope.

I guess these are illegitimate questions. So any question by a non-Cal is illegitimate, and any absurdity posed by a Calvinist is legitimate. You have got to love them, folks.

 

[Van]

At Luke 11:50 we see that the blood of the prophets have been shed from or since the foundation of the world. That is quite a span of time. Lets see, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. The phrase always refers to the time period from creation to the end of the age. It never refers to before the foundation of the world, that is an entirely different period, in eternity.

Such a simple concept, yet no one says, Yes, I agree, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. Why is that? Because of mistranslations like the one found in the ESV.

 

[Revmitchell]

At Luke 11:50 we see that the blood of the prophets have been shed from or since the foundation of the world. That is quite a span of time. Lets see, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. The phrase always refers to the time period from creation to the end of the age. It never refers to before the foundation of the world, that is an entirely different period, in eternity.

Such a simple concept, yet no one says, Yes, I agree, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. Why is that? Because of mistranslations like the one found in the ESV.

That is not why. It is understood that way long before the ESV was conceived and in fact the very orthodox doctrine held by most Calvinist or not. So no, you do not have a case blaming it on Cals or the ESV. Saying that "from the foundation of the world" refers to a time period after creation is as unorthodox as believing Go does not know some things. Which by the way is severe heresy.

 

[Van]

"That is not why?"

"You do not have a case blaming "it" on Cals or the ESV.

What does any of the forgoing have to do with "from the foundation of the world" always meaning after creation and never meaning before creation?

Why does the ESV translate the same phrase two different ways, one consistent with the meaning of the words, Revelation 17:8, and one inconsistent with the meaning of the Greek word "apo" at Revelation 13:8.

Still waiting for anyone other than "In the Light" to state the obvious, the ESV translation at Revelation 13:8 mistranslates from or since as before. And based on the study done by Hermenut7, the mistranslation was not accidental, but based on putting forth what they thought it should say, rather than what it said. Case closed.

 

[Revmitchell]

So I see we are going to avoid my post. When you have no legitimate answer that is the response.

 

[Van]

More shuck and jive, the Calvinists simply state the opposite of truth as being the orthodox view. From the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. This is obvious from Luke 11:50-51, even if one ignores that "apo" means from or since and does not mean before.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinists start posting absurdity when they see that truth is not on their side.

Anything to change the subject to my behavior. That is all they have, shuck and jive.

Again, the original question posed in post 75 was :"Were the translators of the NIV and NLT then all Calvinists from Reformed seminaries, with their bias creeping into the text?"

It is an extremely fair question and not in the least absurd. What is absurd is your reaction to a reasonable question.

 

[Van]

And again a Calvinist asks a completely off topic question, then repeats it.

The bias was demonstrated by the study bible notes on the ESV mistranslation of Revelation 13:8.

From the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. This is obvious from Luke 11:50-51, even if one ignores that "apo" means from or since and does not mean before. When was Abel slain? From the foundation of the world, referring to the period after creation. At Luke 11:50 we see that the blood of the prophets have been shed from or since the foundation of the world. That is quite a span of time. Lets see, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. The phrase always refers to the time period from creation to the end of the age. It never refers to before the foundation of the world, that is an entirely different period, in eternity.

Such a simple concept, yet no one says, Yes, I agree, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. Why is that? Because of mistranslations like the one found in the ESV.

Expect more change the subject shuck and jive posts, that is all they have as they seek to avoid obvious truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

And again a Calvinist asks a completely off topic question, then repeats it.

The bias was demonstrated by the study bible notes on the ESV mistranslation of Revelation 13:8.

From the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. This is obvious from Luke 11:50-51, even if one ignores that "apo" means from or since and does not mean before. When was Abel slain? From the foundation of the world, referring to the period after creation. At Luke 11:50 we see that the blood of the prophets have been shed from or since the foundation of the world. That is quite a span of time. Lets see, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. The phrase always refers to the time period from creation to the end of the age. It never refers to before the foundation of the world, that is an entirely different period, in eternity.

Such a simple concept, yet no one says, Yes, I agree, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period after creation. Why is that? Because of mistranslations like the one found in the ESV.

Expect more change the subject shuck and jive posts, that is all they have as they seek to avoid obvious truth.

You can look at the scholars who produced both the Niv/Nlt, were all of them from reformed seminaries, were all reformed/Calvinists?

If not, did somehow the others just 'agree" to do a calvinist version?

You do NOT understand how schols operate, as they uphold integrity at all costs!
calvinists would translate at times things against their own beliefs if that was wehat the greek/hebrew stated, same way arminians would!

Do you agree that Jesus was "in the beginning", before the foundation of the world, so why wouldn't the chosen in Him be from "in the beginning" also?

And do you see the Lord not knowing who actually is saved, until they make the decision to accept Jesus?

And do you see jesus as being "in the beginning", as from before the foundation of t

 

[Hermeneut7]

Let me try again.

This ignores my rebuttal. This passage is set in the End Times period, thus the time from creation to the end of the age would allow for names to be added, and then the action would be completed when John wrote about the End Times.

Your argument about Revelation 13:8 falls apart at Revelation 17:8. John would not write from and mean before at 13:8 and not at 17:8. It is a mistranslation.

Now let me turn to your, the OT uses before to mean after or after to mean before. If we look at Proverbs 8:22 we see that God possessed wisdom at the beginning of His way. God is eternal so "at the beginning of eternity" matches before the foundation of the world, but not in the beginning of creation. Note your verse says God possessed wisdom before His works of old, i.e. creation. You cannot equate at the beginning of His way, referring to eternity, with in the beginning of creation, because Proverbs 8:22 teaches at the beginning of His way came before His works.

Now lets turn to Isaiah 40:21. This refers to from the foundation of the earth, or after creation. So you have not provided one example where "from" indicates before. What you have is from everlasting referring to a period before creation.

The ESV does not use any meaning found in the OT at Revelation 13:8. They change the very inspired words of John to make it conform to their preconceived notion of how it should read.

But Revelation 13:8 actually reads "from the foundation of the world" and that is what it means, after creation, in every place it is found. No exceptions.

You have a choice, change scripture to fit doctrine, or change doctrine to fit scripture. The doctrine I present is consistent with all scripture, I do not have to fix a verse here, a passage there, and so forth because that would mean I believe in myself and not in God.

I keep getting a #404 refusal on my full Reply. Therefore, try this shorter one. The meaning of Rv.13:8; 17:8 does not depend on the preposition "from", "before" or "since". It is the "past perfect" or "pluperfect" tense of the words "have been written" or "has been written". It means completed in the past, before the other past event in the immediate context. Do some research in your grammar! This site even draws a picture for you:
http://www.myenglishteacher.net/pastperfecttense.html

I've appealed to recognized Greek scholars, to reputable past teachers placed in the body of Christ by God, and compared Scripture to Scripture to see the meaning of various biblical phrasing. I see no more that can be said from my understanding. :smilewinkgrin:

The preposition "apo" is found 616 times in the TR Greek of the NT. It is translated in the NT by 15 different words as I count them. So, you are going to base your entire argument on the thorny issue of which English preposition translates best in Rv.13:8, while ignoring the grammatical tense of the phrase "have been written" which seems consistent in the standard translations? The Campbellites have a better argument based on a preposition in this verse:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38, KJV)

 

[Van]

Yet another totally off topic post by Yeshua1, intended to change the subject. Note the ESV and its Calvinistic mistranslations are no where to be found. That is all they have, slander, engage in mind reading and change the subject.

1) When was Jesus known as the Lamb of God, the Christ? Before the foundation of the world, in eternity before creation. Is this the issue? Nope. Do the Calvinists keep asking as if it is? Yep. Its their change the subject ploy.

2) Does the Lord Jesus know who is saved? Is this the issue? Nope. Do the Calvinists keep asking as if it is? Yep. Its their change the subject ploy.

3) Was Jesus the second person of the Trinity before anything that was made was made? Is this the issue? Nope. Do the Calvinists keep asking as if it is? Yep. Its their change the subject ploy.

And what is the object of all these absurd questions? Why to call into question my fundamental beliefs, to undercut the clear message from scripture concerning the meaning of "from (or since) the foundation of the world. This phrase refers to the period from creation to the end of the age. Luke 11:50-51 demonstrates the phrase refers to after creation because it includes the time when Abel and other prophets blood was shed.

Calvinists have no answer so the slander and change the subject and engage in mind reading. For example they hurl the charge, "you [Van] do not understand how scholars operate." Unless they can read minds, which they can not, then they do not know.

To return to topic, the ESV translates the Greek Word "apo" as meaning before at Revelation 13:8. This mistranslation was done on purpose. The old, if you put it in the context of Calvinist doctrine, then while it literally means from or after or since, you can rewrite the meaning of the word to mean before. So the Calvinists assert scripture does not mean what it says once again.

 

[Yeshua1]

So you do see that the scholars of the Esv were all calvinists, whose agenda was to sneak into their version liberties with the bible text?

 

[Van]

Sorry to see you have given up on understanding Revelation 13:8, as written. Hermeneut7, but you are not alone, none of the Calvinist leaning folks can understand the phrase.

1) the word from is essential to the meaning of the phrase, it happen since or after creation. You simply deny this meaning, but "apo" means from or since as any lexicon will tell you.

2)When is the now in Revelation 13:8. Today, or in End times? This too you are unwilling to admit. Because it nullifies your argument from grammar. So you pretend my rebuttal is non-existent. Nothing I can do about that.

a) The setting of Revelation 13 is End Times, when the "Beast" comes up out of the sea, having 10 horns and 7 heads.
b) So anything that happens before End Times is in the past, grammatically.
c) Now during End Time some worship this beast, everyone whose name has not been written beforehand, before the time of the worship of the beast because the writing is a completed action grammatically.
d) Therefore, according to the context and grammar, anyone whose name was written from the foundation of the world, i.e. since creation, until the worship of the Beast, would have been written in the past.​

Again, thanks for your on topic observations, they illuminated the discussion, demonstrating both why the translators put before rather from or since, and how your study notes used the mistranslation to claim Paul taught likewise at Ephesians 1:4.

 

[Van]

So you do see that the scholars of the Esv were all calvinists, whose agenda was to sneak into their version liberties with the bible text?

Yet another totally off topic post by a Calvinist, again trying to change the subject.

 

[Van]

Thanks for the response. When you have time I look forward to reviewing those versus...I'm curious

I apparently was confused about the New Living Translation at Revelation 13:8. I thought I have found it said, from the foundation, but now looking a two different sources, it says before.

So what does your copy say, from the foundation or before the foundation at Revelation 13:8?

Let me assume that the NLT translates from as if the text read before. If so that we have one verse (Revelation 13:8) where the NLT contains the same mistranslation as the ESV and NIV.

Next, lets consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

13 As for us, we always thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation, a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and by your belief in the truth.

Now if you studied this verse, in this translation, were they chosen through faith in the truth, or did their salvation come through faith in the truth? The second view is correct, based on this translation, and is consistent with Calvinism. However, the first view, a conditional election through faith in the truth is no where to be found. Therefore this is the second verse where the text and underlying grammar have been manipulated to be consistent with Calvinism.

 

[Hermeneut7]

2)When is the now in Revelation 13:8. Today, or in End times?

Again, thanks for your on topic observations, they illuminated the discussion, demonstrating both why the translators put before rather from or since, and how your study notes used the mistranslation to claim Paul taught likewise at Ephesians 1:4.

Van, Revelation gives us the timing of the "now" you ask about, when the book was written back in the 1st century:
1:1 "things which must shortly come to pass;"
1:3 "for the time is at hand"
These timings on "when" are repeated again in 22:6, 10.

I guess those who prayed a sinner's prayer since the 1st century have been left out of the Lamb's book of life in your view. You may try a little fun experiment. I, out of curiosity, placed the TR Greek of 17:8 into the online google translator. This phrase came up as the translation into English: "is written the names on the book of life from all eternity" LOL

On that lighter note I will end my participation in this thread. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Van, Revelation gives us the timing of the "now" you ask about, when the book was written back in the 1st century:
1:1 "things which must shortly come to pass;"
1:3 "for the time is at hand"
These timings on "when" are repeated again in 22:6, 10.

I guess those who prayed a sinner's prayer since the 1st century have been left out of the Lamb's book of life in your view. You may try a little fun experiment. I, out of curiosity, placed the TR Greek of 17:8 into the online google translator. This phrase came up as the translation into English: "is written the names on the book of life from all eternity" LOL

On that lighter note I will end my participation in this thread. :smilewinkgrin:

1) So folks are worshiping the Beast now, or shortly in the future, but the time is at hand, rather than during End Times. OK, if you say so.

2) The view of mainline Christianity is that the worship of the Beast occurs at the end of the age, in End Times.

3) In my view names have been written since the foundation of the world, are being written today and will be written until the end of the age, so no one whose faith has been credited as righteousness has been left out of the Lamb's book of life.

4) If anyone wants to find out how to translate the Greek Critical Text (CT), just look it up in the NASB95, HCSB, NET. If you want a translation of the Byzantine textform, look in the World English Bible. And if you want to know how it reads in the TR, look it up in the NKJV.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

 

[Yeshua1]

Does God know from eternity past who would be saved by the Cross of Christ?

How cantually placed faith in jesus? He predestine them, if by your theology, it seems that he is not aware of whose name was written until they actually placed faith in Christ?

And you do know that God knowing/predestinating the saved is a direct action that he does, as he knows them in a Covenant basis,as He caused them to become saved, correct?

 

[Van]

Does God know from eternity past who would be saved by the Cross of Christ?

How cantually placed faith in jesus? He predestine them, if by your theology, it seems that he is not aware of whose name was written until they actually placed faith in Christ?

And you do know that God knowing/predestinating the saved is a direct action that he does, as he knows them in a Covenant basis,as He caused them to become saved, correct?

Yet another totally off topic post by a Calvinist, again trying to change the subject.

The ESV mistranslates "apo" at Revelation 13:8, changing the inspired word meaning from or since, into another word meaning before. This mistranslation is used in at least one Calvinist study bible to claim it teaches likewise to Ephesians 1:4. But the truth is, from the foundation of the world is not the same time period as before the foundation of the world, when were were chosen in Him.

 

[Van]

Summary of thread, about 8 Calvinist leaning folks have posted in effect from the foundation of the world actually means before the foundation of the world, whereas at least two non-Calvinists have agreed that there is a difference, one referring to before creation, and one referring to after creation.