Eternal Security

[JonC]

To make things easier let's look at the whole passage.

18 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “What do you people mean by using this proverb about the land of Israel, saying,

‘The fathers eat sour grapes,
[a]But it is the children’s teeth that have become blunt’?

3 As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you certainly are not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 Behold, all [c]souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the [e]soul of the son is Mine. The [f]soul who sins will die.

5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 if he does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 and if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 and if he does not [g]lend money at interest or take [h]interest, if he keeps his hand from injustice and executes true justice between one person and another, 9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.

10 “However, he may father a violent son who sheds blood, and does any one of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.

14 “Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he has not defiled his neighbor’s wife, 16 nor oppressed anyone, nor retained a pledge, nor committed robbery; instead, he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17 he keeps his hand from [j]the poor, does not take any kind of interest on loans, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his guilt.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

 

[Charlie24]

To make things easier let's look at the whole passage.

18 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “What do you people mean by using this proverb about the land of Israel, saying,

‘The fathers eat sour grapes,
[a]But it is the children’s teeth that have become blunt’?

3 As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you certainly are not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 Behold, all [c]souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the [e]soul of the son is Mine. The [f]soul who sins will die.

5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 if he does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 and if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 and if he does not [g]lend money at interest or take [h]interest, if he keeps his hand from injustice and executes true justice between one person and another, 9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.

10 “However, he may father a violent son who sheds blood, and does any one of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.

14 “Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he has not defiled his neighbor’s wife, 16 nor oppressed anyone, nor retained a pledge, nor committed robbery; instead, he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17 he keeps his hand from [j]the poor, does not take any kind of interest on loans, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his guilt.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

I don't know what version this is but I can't understand it, my eye and mind are trained for the KJV, so I'll read it from my Bible.

But exactly what do you want to point out? What are you trying to say?

 

[JonC]

I don't know what version this is but I can't understand it, my eye and mind are trained for the KJV, so I'll read it from my Bible.

But exactly what do you want to point out? What are you trying to say?

It is the NASB.

What I was trying to point out is Ezekiel's conclusion.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezekiel is speaking to Jews under the Old Covenant. They will either inherit a blessing or a curse depending on their works.

The New Covenant is different. In Christ there is no curse. Under the Law there was both a blessing and a curse.

The passage is not dealing with faith but with works. It is dealing with God's righteousness manifested through the Law.

In Hebrews the writer is dealing with God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law.

Nowhere in the passage (Ezekiel) is faith even mentioned.



That said, the passage dies not b9de well at all for Reforned theology. So you have that on your side. It pretty much dismisses Calvin's Atonement theory as well.

 

[Ben1445]

As long as we keep focused and fixed upon Yeshua, trusting in Him alone to save us and keep us saved, we shall not turn away and fall away seems to be how some see this issue, but the truth is its God who saved us, will keep us, and the sealing by the Holy Spirit makes this already a "done deal"

I keep coming back to this thought so I will reply to it again.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor. 5:4-5 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
The earnest that Paul speaks of is the downpayment of what is better to come.
When we are saved we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The the guarantee that God will uphold His side of the purchase. But the word sealed indicates a surer finishing of the purchase of the sinner. We are bought, we have a new tenant living within us. But He is only part of the purchase plan. He represents only the earnest. The best is yet to come and the deal is sealed.

 

[Charlie24]

It is the NASB.

What I was trying to point out is Ezekiel's conclusion.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezekiel is speaking to Jews under the Old Covenant. They will either inherit a blessing or a curse depending on their works.

The New Covenant is different. In Christ there is no curse. Under the Law there was both a blessing and a curse.

The passage is not dealing with faith but with works. It is dealing with God's righteousness manifested through the Law.

In Hebrews the writer is dealing with God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law.

Nowhere in the passage (Ezekiel) is faith even mentioned.



That said, the passage dies not b9de well at all for Reforned theology. So you have that on your side. It pretty much dismisses Calvin's Atonement theory as well.

Yes, that is correct, we have been redeemed from the curse of the Law.

We in the NT are under the curse of "the wages of sin is death."

Righteousness in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Dying in your sins" in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Committing Iniquity" in the OT means the same in the NT.

Here's an NT example of the same thing Ezekiel addressed, from Peter.

2 Peter 2:20-22

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, that is correct, we have been redeemed from the curse of the Law.

We in the NT are under the curse of "the wages of sin is death."

Righteousness in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Dying in your sins" in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Committing Iniquity" in the OT means the same in the NT.

Here's an NT example of the same thing Ezekiel addressed, from Peter.

2 Peter 2:20-22

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

There's no way around it, OSAS is a lie, it was the conclusion of the 5 points of Calvinism, where it originated.

The entire theory of predestination as understood in the 5 points is a total fabricated lie.

 

[JonC]

Yes, that is correct, we have been redeemed from the curse of the Law.

We in the NT are under the curse of "the wages of sin is death."

Righteousness in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Dying in your sins" in the OT means the same in the NT.

"Committing Iniquity" in the OT means the same in the NT.

Here's an NT example of the same thing Ezekiel addressed, from Peter.

2 Peter 2:20-22

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

I disagree that righteousness in the OT means the sane in the NT. The reason is righteousness always has God in view.

Under the OT the righteousness of God was manifested through the Law to the people under the Law (do this and live, do this abd die). Men could not merit this righteousness.

But the New Covenant is the "righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law". It is a different covenant.

So we will never agree here.

BUT my point is Ezekiel does not support your position unless you first start with your position and use that to interpret the passage.

There are better passages you can use. You can talk, for example, about us being saved if we "hold fast" to what was delivered to us, that we continue in the faith, etc. There are plenty of passages that support your position without having to read your position into the text.


The more interesting part of Ezekiel is that the text itself should be enough to question Calvinistic Atonement (the basis Ezekiel provides for forgiveness, Ezekiel's insistence that sins and righteousness cannot be transfered from or to others, etc.).


That said, my suggestion would be to stick with passages that directly state obe must continue in the faith in order to be saved. There are plenty of those in Scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

I disagree that righteousness in the OT means the sane in the NT. The reason is righteousness always has God in view.

Under the OT the righteousness of God was manifested through the Law to the people under the Law (do this and live, do this abd die). Men could not merit this righteousness.

But the New Covenant is the "righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law". It is a different covenant.

So we will never agree here.

BUT my point is Ezekiel does not support your position unless you first start with your position and use that to interpret the passage.

There are better passages you can use. You can talk, for example, about us being saved if we "hold fast" to what was delivered to us, that we continue in the faith, etc. There are plenty of passages that support your position without having to read your position into the text.


The more interesting part of Ezekiel is that the text itself should be enough to question Calvinistic Atonement (the basis Ezekiel provides for forgiveness, Ezekiel's insistence that sins and righteousness cannot be transfered from or to others, etc.).


That said, my suggestion would be to stick with passages that directly state obe must continue in the faith in order to be saved. There are plenty of those in Scripture.

The righteousness in the Law came from the Sacrificial System.

Faith in the shed blood of the innocent animal that represented Christ.

They were justified by grace through faith just as we are.

 

[Charlie24]

The righteousness in the Law came from the Sacrificial System.

Faith in the shed blood of the innocent animal that represented Christ.

They were justified by grace through faith just as we are.

Abraham was justified by grace through faith over 400 years before the Law of Moses was instituted!

 

[Charlie24]

Abraham was justified by grace through faith over 400 years before the Law of Moses was instituted!

Abel was justified by grace through faith when he brought an animal sacrifice before the Lord that represented faith in the Blood of Christ.

And God accepted that sacrifice.

 

[JonC]

The righteousness in the Law came from the Sacrificial System.

Faith in the shed blood of the innocent animal that represented Christ.

They were justified by grace through faith just as we are.

I disagree.

The righteousness in the Law came from obedience to the Law ("do this and live"). Sins were covered via the sacrifice system, but in the NT God says He "overlooked" or "passed over" these sins until the NC.

I do agree that the system pointed to Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

I disagree.

The righteousness in the Law came from obedience to the Law ("do this and live"). Sins were covered via the sacrifice system, but in the NT God says He "overlooked" or "passed over" these sins until the NC.

I do agree that the system pointed to Christ.

None of them, not a single one could keep the Law and earn that righteousness.

The reason for the Sacrificial system where the OT saints found grace and mercy, just as we do today.

I can see that you don't understand the purpose of the Law, Jon!

 

[Charlie24]

None of them, not a single one could keep the Law and earn that righteousness.

The reason for the Sacrificial system where the OT saints found grace and mercy, just as we do today.

I can see that you don't understand the purpose of the Law, Jon!

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts, where the apostles met and were deciding what to do with the Gentiles that were being saved, Peter said, why should we hold the Gentiles to the Law that we ourselves can't bear?

 

[JonC]

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts, where the apostles met and were deciding what to do with the Gentiles that were being saved, Peter said, why should we hold the Gentiles to the Law that we ourselves can't bear?

Exactly.

I'm going to move on from this passage because we will never agree abd I see no profit in staying exceot it be a study of Ezekiel.

I believe these passages offer you better supoort (and yes, I'm using the KJV just for you ) :

Hebrews 10
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew 24
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 9
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

 

[JonC]

I can see that you don't understand the purpose of the Law, Jon!

I understand what Scripture tells us the purpose of the Law to be. I may not understand what you think it is.

The Law is a manifestation of God's righteousness. It is perfect. It applies only to those under the Law (under the Old Covenant). But because of the weakness of the flesh none are righteous und we the Law
It serves to show us this fact, to show us our sin. It is a "schoolmaster".

Your mistake is you blend the Old and New Covenants together. The "righteousness under the Law" is unattainable for us. The New Covenant is God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law.

 

[Charlie24]

Exactly.

I'm going to move on from this passage because we will never agree abd I see no profit in staying exceot it be a study of Ezekiel.

I believe these passages offer you better supoort (and yes, I'm using the KJV just for you ) :

Hebrews 10
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew 24
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 9
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

Ok, the "sin willfully" here is not man choosing to sin and it resulting in the blood of the covenant being an unholy thing. We Believers sin knowing we are sinning quite often.

The old preachers call this the willful sin. I started a thread on this sometime back, I'll it up and you can read it if you like instead of me going through it again here.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/the-willful-sin-of-unbelief.130619/

 

[Charlie24]

I understand what Scripture tells us the purpose of the Law to be. I may not understand what you think it is.

The Law is a manifestation of God's righteousness. It is perfect. It applies only to those under the Law (under the Old Covenant). But because of the weakness of the flesh none are righteous und we the Law
It serves to show us this fact, to show us our sin. It is a "schoolmaster".

Your mistake is you blend the Old and New Covenants together. The "righteousness under the Law" is unattainable for us. The New Covenant is God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law.

You are making the mistake of not realizing the Law was never meant for the Gentiles. It was only for the Jews.

Yes, the 10 Commandments are universal and God's standard of righteousness, but as you point out, no man can obtain it but through Christ.

The Law was given to the Jews to prepare them for their coming Messiah, to identify sin and set Israel apart from the rest of the world. They would be the only nation on earth with God's Law.

They were to accept their Messiah and evangelize the Gentile world, but they failed.

The Law was our schoolmaster that pointed to Christ by way that man couldn't keep the Law, he must look to Christ.

Now that Christ has come and finished the work He came to do, the Law has served its purpose and given way to the Grace found in Christ.

 

[JonC]

Ok, the "sin willfully" here is not man choosing to sin and it resulting in the blood of the covenant being an unholy thing. We Believers sin knowing we are sinning quite often.

The old preachers call this the willful sin. I started a thread on this sometime back, I'll it up and you can read it if you like instead of me going through it again here.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/the-willful-sin-of-unbelief.130619/

Or sinning "with a high hand".

 

[JonC]

You are making the mistake of not realizing the Law was never meant for the Gentiles. It was only for the Jews.

Yes, the 10 Commandments are universal and God's standard of righteousness, but as you point out, no man can obtain it but through Christ.

The Law was given to the Jews to prepare them for their coming Messiah, to identify sin and set Israel apart from the rest of the world. They would be the only nation on earth with God's Law.

They were to accept their Messiah and evangelize the Gentile world, but they failed.

The Law was our schoolmaster that pointed to Christ by way that man couldn't keep the Law, he must look to Christ.

Now that Christ has come and finished the work He came to do, the Law has served its purpose and given way to the Grace found in Christ.

Nope. That was my point when I said that the Law applied to those under the Law.

Paul makes this clear when he tells us that sin produces death and death reigned even among those who were not under the Law.

The Law is the Mosaic Law. It established a covenant between God and the Hebrew people. The Law had a positive and a negative - a blessing and a curse. IF the people were righteous under the Kaw then they woukd live. If not, they woukd die. None were righteous.

But the New Covenant is the "righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law'.

 

[Charlie24]

Nope. That was my point when I said that the Law applied to those under the Law.

Paul makes this clear when he tells us that sin produces death and death reigned even among those who were not under the Law.

The Law is the Mosaic Law. It established a covenant between God and the Hebrew people. The Law had a positive and a negative - a blessing and a curse. IF the people were righteous under the Kaw then they woukd live. If not, they woukd die. None were righteous.

But the New Covenant is the "righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law'.

What are you saying, Jon, it seems you are trying to say those under the Law were saved a different way than we are under Grace?

Is that your point?

"The righteousness of God apart from the Law" is the righteousness apart from works that those under the Law were expected to do.

When they seen that they couldn't keep the Law and they were guilty of sin, the Sacrificial System was their grace and mercy.

The New Covenant in Christ is apart from the works of the Law, it's only by the grace and mercy of God, whereas under the Law god expected them to keep the Law, but gave them a way out through the Sacrificial System.