Eternity in heaven?

[Helen]

I care very much what Scripture says. We study it.

My husband and I are also smart enough to know that there is no way we can understand all the prophecies now.

And so, when I run into the wall of my own ignorance, which I do here, I 'back up' to Jesus. I know Jesus. And I know that with Him is heaven.

In the long run, that is enough for me.

I know that when we are with Him, we will all find the areas where we have been wrong. So I would rather practice humility now than have to experience it as a new sensation later!

 

[ituttut]

Are we the bride of Christ? The pastor of a church where Barry was asked to teach at one point challenged us to show in the Bible that we are the Bride of Christ. The following is what we found. We wrote this about a year and a half ago...

Helen I hope you will read this, as I agree with part of the light that has been shown your good Pastor, and others in your church. But there is more light available with more study of His Word that will remove the contradictions in parts of what you have presented, forcing the wrong "outcome".

I believe a mistake was made from the start, i.e. the premise was not to come to what scripture presents, but prove what we have been told is true……"challenged us to show in the Bible that we are the Bride of Christ". To what other conclusion could you come?

I'll not try to answer all here (unless asked) for perhaps you may see it is God's betrothed that is His Bride.

We were challenged to show where the Bible says the Church is the Bride of Christ. Here is our response to that challenge.

Revelation 19:6-9

Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
And his bride has made herself ready.

Can we find where Christ from heaven reveals we are…."the Lambs of Israel, His earthly flock"? It is not biblical, any more than is the "Bride of Christ". We can search the Bible, but it is not found in any acceptable Bible. Trying to make it so only adds error into things such as this, being of secondary importance, and thankfully does not prevent our salvation.

We in the "Body Church" can do nothing to make ourselves ready, as we see of those Revelation. In Him we are complete. We are part of Him and with Him we will come to the "wedding of His Wife to whom He is betrothed". I'm sure Christ Jesus from heaven would have revealed to Paul the "Body Church" is the "bride of the Lamb". Paul never associates we in the Body of Christ as being the "Bride of Christ".

Of His Body, of His Flesh, and of His Bone, yes, but not His Bride. We are like Simile, and not Metaphor of Him.

The best way I can explain it is Jesus Christ is the second Adam. The first Adam came and from Him God gave to Adam the woman, and this woman was the only woman God gave to Adam.

Jesus said He only came for His own, and we know that is the Jew. So out of this second Adam is the woman He is given by His Father to marry. There is no other woman God spread His skirt over - Ezekiel 16:8. We are not that "woman", His betrothed wife. He has gone back Home and will return to take her home, Jerusalem. Who is Jerusalem, the Bride we see in Revelation 21:2, and verses 9-10. It is God's very own nation, His people, those He made covenant with, and they with Him. He promised them.

Fine linen, bright and clean,
Was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Revelation 19:7-8 we find the marriage of the Lamb, and His wife has made herself ready, then those arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints”. Are we in the Body of Christ to overcome? Are we today of those involved in His Second coming to this earth in His wrath? Israel is promised blessings, but says He is coming back in His wrath for His people. Why do we Christians wish to claim those blessing promised, but none of His wrath?

This reference must be kept in its proper place, and that is in prophecy. Fine linen, clean and white speaks to those of Law, and of the Prophets. They are not we, and we are not they. Prophecy was given in the past, and again in the future (Revelation). We are not known in prophesy past, for we cannot be known until Christ Jesus reveals we are in His Body. Since we are not known or prophesied we cannot be found in future prophecy of Revelation, except in connection with those of the heavenlies.

Are you not in the "Body of Christ" Helen? You can be seen in Revelation 12:12, " Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

 

[J. Jump]

So I would rather practice humility now than have to experience it as a new sensation later!

This seems to imply that those that have discovered the plans of God, through the direction of the Spirit, as He has laid them out in Scripture and then believe them and share them are somehow arrogant?

Of course no one knows everything, but the big picture is easy to see and then we start to plug in the details around that framework. Some people have more of the details than others, but we should all be working towards adding to that framework the details that God has given to us.

God has given us great detail in regard to mankind, salvation, redemption, the coming age, etc., and a little about eternity (although not very many details there).

 

[J. Jump]

Israel is God the Father's wife, albeit an adulterous wife as of now. Christ will have a bride that is made up of the saints of the church. This can easily be seen in OT type. To say that Israel is Christ's wife or that the city of Jerusalem is somehow the wife of Christ is to miss a good chunk of the big picture of what God's plans are. But this is way too detailed to take up on a message board.

 

[Brother Bob]

I will go with those who say we are the bride of Christ! Better yet, I will go with the scripture.

Rom 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

(edit)
Eph 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Jesus told His followers that "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Now, like Donna said, somebody is liable to jump in and say, but those words were meant only for those who were with Him at that time when He spoke to them.

And like Donna says, "I don't care" what others think. Jesus said believe Him, and Him I believe. Jesus said if it were not so, He would already have told those people He was speaking to. That's the same thing as Him saying what we say today, "you can take it to the bank".

He is in His Father's house, where there are many mansions, and He went and prepared a place for His people. His Father's house is in heaven. That's it. I rest my case.

 

[Helen]

Helen I hope you will read this,

...Are you not in the "Body of Christ" Helen? You can be seen in Revelation 12:12, " Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Yes, I read it, and yes I am part of the Body of Christ. I also know that the husband is to love the wife as he loves his own body, and that the two shall become one...

So we have to be very careful about how far to take all these pictures, for we do NOT become one with Christ, and I am sure of that! He is God and we are not and never will be.

It does appear to me that the Bible indicates we who are believers today, especially Gentile believers, are the Bride of Christ. If I am wrong I know that does not affect my salvation and that, one way or another, I will be with Him forever. That much I do understand clearly.

How it all works out in terms of the symbols and hints we are given in the Bible is something that I have a feeling will surprise all of us, at least a little. I can deal with that!

But in terms of the opening post, the third heaven in the Hebrew culture is defined as God's throne. Since He comes down to dwell with men in the new creation, and His throne is in the New Jerusalem, then earth and heaven will have merged, and yes, we will be with our Lord in heaven AND on earth, forever.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So I would rather practice humility now than have to experience it as a new sensation later!

So, why do you suppose he put all that junk in the Bible, if we don't need it?

 

[Lacy Evans]

But in terms of the opening post, the third heaven in the Hebrew culture is defined as God's throne. Since He comes down to dwell with men in the new creation, and His throne is in the New Jerusalem, then earth and heaven will have merged, and yes, we will be with our Lord in heaven AND on earth, forever.

Thank you Sister Helen for keeping this thread on topic.

It seems that there is much emotional static that we have to filter through before we can just have an honest what-ever-the-Bible-says-I'll agree-with discussion.

Lacy

 

[DQuixote]

Yes.

One evening I was out in the front yard watching a meteor shower. We called them "shooting stars." There was really an abundance of them that evening. At one point a comet flashed by. I thought surely it was the grand finale, just above the housetops! My dear Grandmother was on the front porch. She came to me and placed her arm around my shoulders. Calling me by the name she always used, she said, "........., there is something out there in the heavens, like a shining star. Scientists can't explain it. They don't know what it is. But your Gram knows. It is the New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven."

Boy, do I love that memory. I see her now. I think I've written it, word-for-word.

Thanks, Gram.

 

[J. Jump]

It seems that there is much emotional static that we have to filter through before we can just have an honest what-ever-the-Bible-says-I'll agree-with discussion.

Amen to that!

 

[ituttut]

Israel is God the Father's wife, albeit an adulterous wife as of now. Christ will have a bride that is made up of the saints of the church. This can easily be seen in OT type. To say that Israel is Christ's wife or that the city of Jerusalem is somehow the wife of Christ is to miss a good chunk of the big picture of what God's plans are. But this is way too detailed to take up on a message board.

All we need is His Word. If other is said than what scripture reveals, it must be wrong. We can't change the meaning shown in Revelation 21, (and other scripture) without contridiction.

Past bedtime here.

 

[J. Jump]

All we need is His Word. If other is said than what scripture reveals, it must be wrong.

I will amen that. Unfortunately everyone that holds a theological stance says they are believing according to His Word. But in the final analysis not all people are truly believing in His Word, but a human twist on His Word. And that is especially true when it comes to eternal salvation and our final destiny and what happens inbetween this age the next age and the endless ages (eternity).

 

[skypair]

Helen;
I doubt if it will be friend because of the following:

11: And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13: Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Bob --- from my studies, I make this "friend" out to be AntiChrist. He "looks like" a Jew -- is "accepted" in place of Christ/Messiah. The Jews are the ones invited and bidden to the postrib marriage feast that the King (God) puts on for His Son. The AC is thrown out of the earth into hades for 1000 years after Christ's return with His "wife," Rev 19:7.

skypair

 

[HankD]

I will amen that. Unfortunately everyone that holds a theological stance says they are believing according to His Word. But in the final analysis not all people are truly believing in His Word, but a human twist on His Word. And that is especially true when it comes to eternal salvation and our final destiny and what happens inbetween this age the next age and the endless ages (eternity).

I prefer the John 14:2 passage. He has prepared a place for us in His Father's house.
I don't see any indication that it is temporary. What life will be like there, well we probably wouldn't be able to comprehend it this side of "heaven":

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

Personally I think what is important is the quality and quantity of eternal life not so much where it will be spent (hmm, poor choice "spent" since it is eternal). We will be with Him.

Call it what you will, for me it will be HEAVEN (shout it!).

HankD​

 

[skypair]

Where do we get the idea scripturally that the redeemed will dwell in heaven for eternity? I see us at best, waiting temporarily in heaven for our new bodies and for the redemption of the earth, then coming back with Christ to reign over a new heaven and earth from Jerusalem.

I really don't see much in scripture at all about spending eternity in heaven.

Lacy

Here's my understanding -- when we are saved, our soul is resurrected "to heavenly places in Christ Jesus." BTW, this makes our bodies -- progressively probably -- "terrestrially glorified" through the Holy Spirit.

When we die, our spirit (mind, emotions, and will) go there (3rd heaven).

At the rapture, our bodies become "celestially glorified" so that they can exist there and off we go pretrib to 3rd heaven/NJ!!

Now at Christ's return, we come with Him to set up His kingdom. I do not believe that we stay because we will then rule angels and NJ is our "inheritance" and home.

PostMK, all believers will be caught up to NJ while earth is (whatever you guys can agree on :laugh: ) and then all come down IN NJ where OT and trib saints will "get off" and reoccupy their eternal inheritance (remember the Abrahamic covenant?), the New Earth. The church will occury NJ for eternity (unless God has not given us all of His plan yet.).

skypair

 

[webdog]

New Jersey is where we all will spend eternity?

 

[J. Jump]

I prefer the John 14:2 passage. He has prepared a place for us in His Father's house.

Well that is certainly the text of choice when trying to prove that eternity is in heaven. However there is no indication given to us in this text that the Father's house is immovable. Just because something is prepared in one spot doesn't mean that it's permanent.

Again Scripture tells us that the throne of God will one day be in the physical Jerusalem where God will dwell amongst His people on the earth not in heaven.

So if that is what Scripture tells us why do we want to continue to give people the idea that eternity is spent in a place where it is not? I don't understand that.

Yes we will dwell in the presence of God for eternity, but it's not going to be in heaven. So why don't we speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. If church tradition holds up to the Scripture test then fine, but if Scripture slaps tradition in the face then why do we want to continue to hold on to it? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

 

[J. Jump]

New Jersey is where we all will spend eternity?

That thought actually crossed my mind as well

 

[pinoybaptist]

PostMK, all believers will be caught up to NJ .......

Do you think the town of Hoboken will be there ? Have always wanted to see Ol' Blue Eyes' hometown, ya know. :wavey: