Eternity in heaven?

[Brother Bob]

I never said God took away anything but what better answer would you want than that of the Lord. I don't want to try to add or take away from His answer to your question. The Jews asked Him the very same question, if His answer does not suffice, then I can't help you.
Luke 17
20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

Here you go making stuff up again Bro. Bob. That's not what was said. Satan is the god of this world. He is currently the ruler of this world along with his co-horts. He is in charge of this kingdom for the time being, but to the thanksgiving and praise of God Almighty He has appointed a New King . . . The King of kings and Lord of lords! Christ Jesus will one day rule this earth in the stead of Satan and I agree with HoG I want to be a part of that kingdom when it comes. It has not come yet.

The text that you speak of is Jesus speaking with the religious leaders of the day and the kingdom certainly was not within them do you think Bro. Bob? The kingdom was "amongst" them or in their midst, because the King of the kingdom was on the scene.

His kingdom has not come yet. It is still yet future. And yes I hope to have a part to play in that coming kingdom!!!

I never made anything up and please don't accuse me of it. If satan is your King, then so be it, He is not mine.

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I will stay with the Lord being my King and my all in all. He rules in my life now.

 

[J. Jump]

I never said God took away anything

Bob you have been arguing that there is no physical kingdom and then you say this. Which is it Brother Bob? Is there going to be a physical kingdom that Israel is head of or not?

Again so the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees Brother Bob? Do you believe the Pharisees were saved Brother Bob?

 

[J. Jump]

I never made anything up and please don't accuse me of it.

Yes you did and I showed you exactly how you did. And then you sit there and make that statement and then make up something else right after it. Let me point out that one Bro. Bob.

If satan is your King, then so be it,

Neither HoG or myself said Satan was our king. That is MADE UP. Guess who MADE IT UP. That's right you did. We didn't say that.

Satan is the god of the world whether you want to admit it or not. That's plainly what Scripture teaches. That doesn't mean he is someone's lord. He has been placed in a position of rulership over this earth and that's that. He won't rule over this earth much longer Praise to God Almighty!!

Now please deal with what is actually said and quit making stuff up!

 

[Brother Bob]

You may want to be considered a part of the current kingdom, but I certainly don't! The current kingdom is under Satan's authority!

I want to be a part of the future Kingdom that Jesus has authority over.

You are right and I apoligize, he never said he was a part of any Kingdom or had a king but will have one in the future, as I understand what he wrote.
I never said anything about you, so let him stand up for himself. I suppose you have your hands full looking after yourself, but then again, you may be perfect.

Again so the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees Brother Bob? Do you believe the Pharisees were saved Brother Bob?

If some of the Pharasees were of those who received the Lord, they were saved. The Pharasees were Jews and later became a part of Judah. They were some who received Jesus as the Messiah when He came, but many did not believe He was the promise that God had made, but there has always been a remnant, same as today, that believe Jesus is the Messiah.
If we will not accept the word of Jesus that the Kingdom is within us, I just don't know what to say. He is my all and all, my Lord, my King, my deliverer and my Salvation.

 

[J. Jump]

You are right and I apoligize

Many thanks . . .

but then again, you may be perfect.

. . . hardly :tear:

 

[ituttut]

I believe everyone that knows and believes the written word of God and believes in Creation, will have to admit our bodies are a part of the earth. From dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return.
If its of the earth and will be made over new. I don't know how anyone could deny we are of the earth.

I believe we are now made part earth, and part not. Our Lord Jesus Christ was part earth and part heavenly, yet the very God, and we in the Body will be like Him--Philippians 3:20-21. That means we are of the heavenly, and not the earthly we once were - I Corinthians 15:47-49.

I can see why most would not want the New bodies to be the New Earth, it would destroy most if not all of their theology on the "end times".

Are we told we will serve Israel, those that will possess the earth? We serve our Lord Jesus Christ in the heavenlies.

Question:
1. Is our bodies of the earth?

I knew this before first grade.

2. Will our bodies be made over new?

I was a little older while studying His Word when I found this answer. We go to His Book for answers, and it's in the Book - "NOW THIS I SAY, BRETHREN, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT
INCORRUPTION" (I Corinthians 15:50).

If we are of the "Body Church", of which I am, then I know this is the way I gain entrance into the Kingdom of God.

 

[PreachingTruth]

Where do we get the idea scripturally that the redeemed will dwell in heaven for eternity? I see us at best, waiting temporarily in heaven for our new bodies and for the redemption of the earth, then coming back with Christ to reign over a new heaven and earth from Jerusalem.

I really don't see much in scripture at all about spending eternity in heaven.

Lacy

You are correct. As much as Hell (Sheol/Hades) is a temporary holding place for the wicked, being reserved for the lake of fire, so is Heaven a holding place for the elect. In the end God will restore all things, and we will live in paradise forever. We may loosely call this "Heaven" because it is the life to come. But, you are right that most Christians nowadays do not make a proper distinction, probably because they don't read the Bible!

 

[ituttut]

Hello Helen. Not "snubbing you", for thought had answered, but see I haven't.

Originally Posted by ituttut
Helen I hope you will read this,

...Are you not in the "Body of Christ" Helen? You can be seen in Revelation 12:12, " Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


Yes, I read it, and yes I am part of the Body of Christ. I also know that the husband is to love the wife as he loves his own body, and that the two shall become one...

So we have to be very careful about how far to take all these pictures, for we do NOT become one with Christ, and I am sure of that! He is God and we are not and never will be.

Helen I know people get tired of me saying I have my own Apostle, but he is the only one God gave me. As I study what Christ says from heaven, I see I am in the "Body Church", and I am of Him, accordingly as Christ has revealed to Paul. Ephesians 5:30, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." We have been absorbed.

It does appear to me that the Bible indicates we who are believers today, especially Gentile believers, are the Bride of Christ. If I am wrong I know that does not affect my salvation and that, one way or another, I will be with Him forever. That much I do understand clearly.

Amen, and this is just a point we do not agree on.

How it all works out in terms of the symbols and hints we are given in the Bible is something that I have a feeling will surprise all of us, at least a little. I can deal with that!

We know what He tells us, and that is it. He revealed Himself as, and when He wished, and as we study we wonder just when is it God takes notice of the Gentiles, whom Jesus called dogs. Only after Damascus Road can I find how I, a Gentile am justified to eternal life. With a surety, we can know more than we think we can.

But in terms of the opening post, the third heaven in the Hebrew culture is defined as God's throne. Since He comes down to dwell with men in the new creation, and His throne is in the New Jerusalem, then earth and heaven will have merged, and yes, we will be with our Lord in heaven AND on earth, forever.

But we are not Hebrews. We also know God is above the heavens, that He created. We know today in heaven and also the earth God has His whole family (Ephesians 3:15). We have dispensational disagreements today, but in the final dispensation, many will be done and they will fade away.

We today are already part of His Body, He being the Head, He that is the Bridegroom. In that final "dispensation" will not then the heavenly saints (the Body of Christ) be joined by the others, viz. the earthly saints, Israel, and the redeemed nations?

In the beginning our God of Love, created, and the one who informs us of the "grace commission", the gospel of the Cross, the gospel of grace begins every one of His Epistles to the Gentile and the Jew with grace sent from God, and ends with the Grace of God. We do not find this in Paul's book to his own people, the Hebrews, but he ends this book by requesting that grace be with them, those of that "Kingdom Church".

There is only one other Book in the Bible (Revelation) that ends with the grace of God. Also there is only one other Book in the Bible (II John) where the Father, and the Son allows one to personally send their Grace. But of interest we are to notice permission is only given by the Holy Spirit for John to write his Books some 30 years after the death of Paul. There are connotations here.

 

[J. Jump]

If some of the Pharasees were of those who received the Lord, they were saved. The Pharasees were Jews and later became a part of Judah. They were some who received Jesus as the Messiah when He came, but many did not believe He was the promise that God had made, but there has always been a remnant, same as today, that believe Jesus is the Messiah. If we will not accept the word of Jesus that the Kingdom is within us, I just don't know what to say. He is my all and all, my Lord, my King, my deliverer and my Salvation.

Bro. Bob as I have said in a previous post "within you" is a very poor translation. The idea of the passage is that the kingdom was in their midst, because the King of the kingdom was present making the offer of the kingdom to them. If Israel would believe and repent then the kingdom would have been established. But they didn't. The kingdom was within their midst not within them.

Again the kingdom is future. It is not present. Christ is currently the High Priest and the Annointed King, but He is not practicing His Authority.

To get a picture of this we would look to Saul and David. Saul, a picture of Satan, was appointed ruler over this earth. Because he disqualified himself he has been told that his rulership is over despite still holding power as Saul did. David was annointed king while Saul was still king, just as Christ is the Annointed One while Satan is still in charge. As David went away and gathered faithful men under him, so Christ has gone away and is currently gathering faithful men/women unto Himself. Like with David when the time came he was ready and prepared to rule. When the day comes (and very soon!) Christ will be ready to rule and reign, but that time has not come yet.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro. Bob as I have said in a previous post "within you" is a very poor translation. The idea of the passage is that the kingdom was in their midst, because the King of the kingdom was present making the offer of the kingdom to them. If Israel would believe and repent then the kingdom would have been established. But they didn't. The kingdom was within their midst not within them.

You say, if Israel had of accepted Him and repented, He would of established the kingdom. Well, some of them did receive Him and were given the power to become the "sons of God". I am not saying that all of Israel received the Kingdom, only those who received Him.

Again the kingdom is future. It is not present. Christ is currently the High Priest and the Annointed King, but He is not practicing His Authority

But I thought God is Sovereign? I agree that the time is yet to come when He will put down all other Kings, Satan and all of the Kingdom will come together and be presented to the Father, without spot or blemish, both souls and bodies of the saved.

Christ is currently the High Priest and the Annointed King, but He is not practicing His Authority.

You say that Christ is already Annointed King and High Priest, but you say He is not practicing His Authority.

Don't the scripture say He is on the right hand of God maketh intersession for the Saints. Also, didn't He say "I will never leave you". Again, didn't He say, Me and My Father will come in and take up our abode in you?

Again, they asked Jesus the very same question you are asking and Jesus gave them the answer.

If you have another translation of "within you", what is it?

1 John 5:

4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jhn 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Jhn 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe we are now made part earth, and part not. Our Lord Jesus Christ was part earth and part heavenly, yet the very God, and we in the Body will be like Him--Philippians 3:20-21. That means we are of the heavenly, and not the earthly we once were - I Corinthians 15:47-49

I agree.

I was a little older while studying His Word when I found this answer. We go to His Book for answers, and it's in the Book - "NOW THIS I SAY, BRETHREN, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT
INCORRUPTION" (I Corinthians 15:50).

This is simply saying, you can not be born naturally so, into the Kingdom, but must be born again of the Spirit, and in the resurrection you will receive a body that pleaseth Him, and unto ever seed, its own body.

It (body) will be sown a corruptle, but rasied an incorruptle. The soul has already received its change as I see it. IMO

One thing you failed to address, even though you said you learned it before grade school. Will our earthly bodies be made over "new".

 

[J. Jump]

You say, if Israel had of accepted Him and repented, He would of established the kingdom. Well, some of them did receive Him and were given the power to become the "sons of God". I am not saying that all of Israel received the Kingdom, only those who received Him.

Yes a small number of people did accept the offer of the kingdom. But the kingdom was not established because it was a national offer and belief and repentance had to be a national belief and repentance and that did not happen, so the offer of the kingdom was taken away from Israel and given to a nation that would produce the fruits of it.

That's where the Gentiles come into the picture, but we won't chase that rabbit .

But I thought God is Sovereign?

He is, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what we were talking about?

I agree that the time is yet to come when He will put down all other Kings, Satan and all of the Kingdom will come together and be presented to the Father

Okay if you see that Truth then you can see that the kingdom that is being spoken of is not something that is within a person, but it an actual literal kingdom that is coming one day with Christ as the King of the kingdom.

Again, they asked Jesus the very same question you are asking and Jesus gave them the answer.

I was unaware I was asking a question

If you have another translation of "within you", what is it?

I've shared that twice in previous posts, but it's in your midst. The kingdom was in their midst (around them) because the King of the kingdom was on the scene and ready to establish the kingdom if the nation would believe and repent. But they didn't. They killed the King of the kingdom and He went away just as David did. But one day it will be time for Him to return (again soon!) and He will establish His kingdom both on the physical earth and in the heavens just as Scripture tells us He will.

Even so come Lord!!!

Hope that helps.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes a small number of people did accept the offer of the kingdom. But the kingdom was not established because it was a national offer and belief and repentance had to be a national belief and repentance and that did not happen, so the offer of the kingdom was taken away from Israel and given to a nation that would produce the fruits of it.

So for Israel to receive the Kingdom, each and ever one of them must accept Christ? You say the Kingdom was taken away and given to the Gentiles, so do the Gentiles have the Kingdom within them or in their midst?

You also say He is already annointed King and High Priest. Who is He King of, and where is His Kingdom? Also, if He chose us out of the world, where did He put us?

 

[J. Jump]

So for Israel to receive the Kingdom, each and ever one of them must accept Christ?

During the original offer of the kingdom to Israel yes it was a national offer. The entire nation would have had to believe and repent in order for the kingdom to have been established at that time. That never occured, so the kingdom was never established.

You say the Kingdom was taken away and given to the Gentiles, so do the Gentiles have the Kingdom within them or in their midst?

Well to be a little more technical the "offer" of the kingdom was taken away and given to the Gentiles, which is not to say that no Jew can accept the offer of the kingdom now, but it is individual and they must come through the Substitute of Jesus first and be saved as any other Gentile would be saved today. Then an only then would they be in a position to accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.

See most people equate the kingdom with eternal salvation and those two are not the same thing. One must be eternally saved (made spiritually alive), before they can even accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.

so do the Gentiles have the Kingdom within them or in their midst?

Not in the sense that they did during the time Christ was on earth, because Christ has returned to heaven and is no longer on earth.

You also say He is already annointed King and High Priest.

He is the Annointed King, which is currently not exercising His authority, because He is currently our High Priest looking for those that will join Him in His coming kingdom. There's a lot more detail than that, but that is the basic picture, via Saul and David.

Who is He King of, and where is His Kingdom?

He is King of those that want Him to be King over them. However there are a great many eternally saved folks today that claim Him as their King, but they really don't understand what that means and in pratice they say otherwise. His kingdom is this earth, which is currently under the rulership of Satan. Again see the picture of Saul and David. Saul was king of Israel even while David had been annointed king of Israel. Christ is the Annointed King over the entire earth, but Satan has yet to be removed as the ruler over the earth.

Also, if He chose us out of the world, where did He put us?

Well physically we are still in the same place we have always been. We are to be foreigners in a strange land, awaiting our home land. A lot more could be said on that subject as well.

 

[Brother Bob]

Last question, I guess, thanks for your answers. I may not agree but understand what you are saying.

1. When we were born naturally, we were born into this world.

2. When we were born spiritually (born again), what were we born in to?

 

[J. Jump]

When we were born spiritually (born again), what were we born in to?

Again we are in this world (that never changed), but we are not to be of this world. We are now to be seeking first the kingdom of God now looking for that land that awaits the faithful, obedient, overcoming believer! We are to keep our eye on the prize, and that prize is our inheritance. And our inheritance is being able to rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom.

 

[skypair]

I don't believe it will be the physical Jerusalem.

Yup, right there! :jesus: Read Ezek 40-48 and see that the MIllennial Temple will be 1.5 MILES long and wide. And yes, if the Gentile nations don't bring sacrifice once a year, they won't get rain.

"Number that no man can number" ain't going to live there -- there's NJ and then there's earth/NE. Besides, isn't "innumerable" for the angels and "tens of thousands and thousands of thousands" for the saints?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rev. 2112: And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

These gates are for ISRAEL to come and go from their inheritance, the New Earth.

16: And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

This one is not 1/5 miles per side --- it's 1500 miles wide, long, and high!!

18: And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19: And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20: The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Made up of the "gold, silver, and precious stones" of the church saints -- 1Cor 3:12!!

23: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Indeed, the light will be 7 times that of the sun -- so there is no need of the sun.

24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25: And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

No night in NJ.

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Yes, NJ is the inheritance of the CHURCH.

2Cr 5:1¶For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Sorry, Bob, this speaks of our new glorified BODIES -- not about NJ.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You make some good points, Bob.

You say, if Israel had of accepted Him and repented, He would of established the kingdom. Well, some of them did receive Him and were given the power to become the "sons of God". I am not saying that all of Israel received the Kingdom, only those who received Him.

Christ's kingdom now is among BELIEVERS. That Jesus said "the kingdom is within you" is to say that the knowledge of it was within them -- it was standing right in front of them!

But I thought God is Sovereign?

Only totally so in HIS kingdom -- postMK. There will still be sin and death even in the MK, so He won't be sovereign till afterward.

...all of the Kingdom will come together and be presented to the Father, without spot or blemish, both souls and bodies of the saved.

Yes, after the last rebellion, Christ takes the remaining believers from earth to NJ while God "reforms" the earth. Then NJ comes down to HIM being delivered into God's kingdom!

Don't the scripture say He is on the right hand of God maketh intersession for the Saints. Also, didn't He say "I will never leave you". Again, didn't He say, Me and My Father will come in and take up our abode in you?

Yes. His kingdom reigns over BELIEVERS NOW.

Again, they asked Jesus the very same question you are asking and Jesus gave them the answer.

If you have another translation of "within you", what is it?

Mainly, it was priestly Israel that needed to accept Him. This is the message of Joel 2 in the last days. The priests call the holy fast praying for deliverance. This is when they begin to see Christ and corresponds, in my mind, to Zech 12:10 were the "look to Him whom they have pierced."

skypair

 

[skypair]

During the original offer of the kingdom to Israel yes it was a national offer. The entire nation would have had to believe and repent in order for the kingdom to have been established at that time. That never occured, so the kingdom was never established.

This is untrue because even at the 2nd advent only a REMNANT are saved. Basically, it is the religious authorities who had to acccept him. You'll see that in Joel 2 and Zech 12:10 in the last days.

Well to be a little more technical the "offer" of the kingdom was taken away and given to the Gentiles, which is not to say that no Jew can accept the offer of the kingdom now, but it is individual and they must come through the Substitute of Jesus first and be saved as any other Gentile would be saved today. Then an only then would they be in a position to accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.

If someone receives Christ as "Lord and Savior," Rom 10:9-10, the one is receiving both Savior and kingdom/Lordship. Perhaps you are thinking that we must do Rom 10:9-10 and then accept Chitworth (or whatever his name is) in order to receive the kingdom, right? Cause that makes sense in a perverse way. :laugh:

He is King of those that want Him to be King over them. However there are a great many eternally saved folks today that claim Him as their King, but they really don't understand what that means and in pratice they say otherwise.

Of course there are -- there are children that haven't even thought about daring yet who are saved! They haven't given the least bit of thought to Christ being Lord over their romantic affairs. That doesn't mean they are not in the kingdom, JJ.

We are NEVER over changes of circumstances, JJ. At what point do we come upon that last thing Christ wants to rule over and enter His kingdom?? It's like saying how good is good enough to be saved, isn't it?

Well physically we are still in the same place we have always been. We are to be foreigners in a strange land, awaiting our home land. A lot more could be said on that subject as well.

As soon as one is saved, his/her citizenship is in heaven, God and Christ's kingdom right now. I go so far as to say that our souls are in heaven "seated with Christ in heavenly places." We are "in Him" and He "in us" just as Jesus prayed in John 17:21. Read it -- "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

No, the saved are NOT waiting to "sign up for" any other kingdom. You just have failed to claim your full inheritance if you feel you are not in the kingdom yet.

skypair