EVs are running out of customers

[JonC]

Do you support some form of State Capitalism?



No. If I don't like how a business treats someone, for whatever reason, I can refuse to do business with them in a laissez faire capitalist system.



So, do you sort of automatically default to bad solutions, especially government-enforced ones?



Do you support mandates to stop the production of fossil-fuel powered vehicles?

Do you place what you think are "the interests and stability of our nation" ahead of individual liberty? What if someone else thinks that "the interests and stability of our nation" means something that you disagree with and wants to use government force on you?



I disagree. I think that medicine, as well as other areas, would be far more advanced without the drag and corruption of government.



Thank you for at least not going THAT far into Statism.



You are failing to take into account a WHOLE lot of virtue signaling by people with the means to do so.



And, that is not capitalistic. That is Statism.

No, I do not default to bad solutions. I believe we have to choose the best solution, even if it is not a perfect solution. The issue is not the solution but human imperfection.

I support capitalism, period. Most issues can be resolved in a capitalistic system.

History, however, has proven that a laissez faire capitalist system is problematic. (Yes, I am of Irish descent ).

Governments govern.

Restricting EVs only to the wealthy is not, IMHO, a good idea.

Think of all the people who would have died if the government did not subsidize, in some form, medical technologies. Capitalism is still in play. The medicines most in need are the medicines most developed. But most people do not need many of the medicines developed.

 

[KenH]

Governments govern.

"The best government is that which governs least. No human depositories can, with safety, be trusted with the power of legislation upon the general interests of society so as to operate directly or indirectly on the industry and property of the community. Such power must be perpetually liable to the most pernicious abuse, from the natural imperfection, both in wisdom of judgment and purity of purpose, of all human legislation, exposed constantly to the pressure of partial interests; interests which, at the same time that they are essentially selfish and tyrannical, are ever vigilant, persevering, and subtle in all the arts of deception and corruption." - United States Magazine and Democratic Review

Restricting EVs only to the wealthy is not, IMHO, a good idea.

Even if the free market says so?

Think of all the people who would have died if the government did not subsidize, in some form, medical technologies.

Think of all the people who have died because of government interference.

 

[JonC]

"The best government is that which governs least. No human depositories can, with safety, be trusted with the power of legislation upon the general interests of society so as to operate directly or indirectly on the industry and property of the community. Such power must be perpetually liable to the most pernicious abuse, from the natural imperfection, both in wisdom of judgment and purity of purpose, of all human legislation, exposed constantly to the pressure of partial interests; interests which, at the same time that they are essentially selfish and tyrannical, are ever vigilant, persevering, and subtle in all the arts of deception and corruption." - United States Magazine and Democratic Review



Even if the free market says so?



Think of all the people who have died because of government interference.

You are putting bad against bad (people have died because of government interference, people have been saved due to medical advancements).

I agree people have died due to government interference. I am retired Army, so I know some of those who have died.

I believe we should have a small federal government. The smaller the better.

But I still believe a laissez faire capitalistic system will ultimately fail.


The real question here is whether the US should develop its own EV's or whether we should depend on foreign countries. There already is a demand. Consumers want the product.

 

[Salty]

A car salesman friend of mine said that the commission on EV's are very low.

 

[Van]

Batteries are the kicker. I wanted a battery system with my solar panels. But I talked with a source who told me it will be a few years before they are cost effective.

Agreed, but the question arises, why has it taken so long to bring LFP storage batteries to market at a cost competitive price. Has the fossil fuel industry hindered development?

 

[KenH]

believe we should have a small federal government. The smaller the better.

But I still believe a laissez faire capitalistic system will ultimately fail.

Sound like your thoughts are at cross purposes with themselves.

 

[KenH]

Has the fossil fuel industry hindered development?

Do you have some kind of animosity toward fossil fuels in general or just on this particular subject?

 

[Van]

Gee a charging rate that means I only have to spend three hours instead of what 7-10. Does not work for those that make their living while the wheels are turning. It is not a viable answer for most people. COST is the big factor. Where to charge is another. Ability to actually do your job is a third. EV's are a rich man's dream that the average man can not afford.

Currently is is possible to make ownership of personal use vehicles with a battery size of over 100 KWhs. This will provide a range near 400 miles for a daily drive. Then overnight the vehicle can be fully recharged.

BTW, lots of people use their EV Ford Lightning for commercial purposes but do not drive more than the single charge range.

 

[Van]

Do you have some kind of animosity toward fossil fuels in general or just on this particular subject?

My "animosity" is toward falsehoods, myths, and disinformation.

I did not see where you addressed the reason why it has taken decades to bring "home grown" LFP storage batteries to market. But China has figured out how to produce the cells?

 

[KenH]

But China has figured out how to produce the cells?

Have they?

 

[Van]

Have they?

yes

 

[KenH]

yes

Link?

 

[Van]

Statement:
"But China has figured out how to produce the cells?"
Question?
What cells?
Answer:
LFP storage battery cells.

Link?

LFP was invented and developed in North America, but Chinese companies were the first to place a big bet on the technology, according to Karim Zaghib, a battery scientist at Concordia University who worked for Hydro-Québec in the 1990s.

After successfully installing LFP batteries on buses ahead of the 2008 Beijing Olympics, China, impressed by the chemistry’s improved fire safety compared with nickel-based batteries, made LFP production a national project, Zaghib says. “The Chinese government and Chinese companies invested a lot in LFP.”

And the material has been a hit. In 2021, more than 40% of electric vehicles sold in China had LFP in their batteries, according to the market research firm Adamas Intelligence. “In China, small electric vehicles . . . with a range of 120 km are very popular,” says Alla Kolesnikova, head of data analytics at Adamas. “The majority of them are powered by LFP.”​

 

[KenH]

@Van Thank you for the information.

 

[KenH]

" NCM batteries perform better than LFPs in cold weather and on high-intensity activities like towing due to their higher energy density.

As one PCMag reader with an LFP-based Tesla Model 3 tells me: "In the cold weather you can't get in the car and drive 240 miles in one shot. It's more like 175."
...
Yet any time I ask an automaker questions about LFP battery performance, it's a conversation killer. "Regarding commentary on the LFP battery, we don’t have anything to share at this point," a Rivian spokesperson said this week. She would only concede that LFPs will open up an "entry-level price point" for its R1 EVs in early 2024.
...
This curious caginess—shared by multiple automakers—raises an uncomfortable question: Are they hiding something? The cynical take is yes, an automaker like Rivian is reluctant to publicize any downsides that could hamper sales of already pricey vehicle; the R1T starts at $73,000. A more positive interpretation: The company is simply communicating the baseline metrics the EPA requires, and doesn't think the public needs more specific information.
...
Meanwhile, lawsuits are piling up over automakers overstating and obscuring vehicle range, including a recent case against Tesla, Mashable reports. "

- rest at These Batteries Could Drive EV Adoption: Why Are Carmakers So Tight-Lipped? | PCMag

 

[KenH]

@Van Is this the article you quoted from? Lithium iron phosphate comes to America (acs.org)

 

[Van]

" NCM batteries perform better than LFPs in cold weather and on high-intensity activities like towing due to their higher energy density.

As one PCMag reader with an LFP-based Tesla Model 3 tells me: "In the cold weather you can't get in the car and drive 240 miles in one shot. It's more like 175."
...
Yet any time I ask an automaker questions about LFP battery performance, it's a conversation killer. "Regarding commentary on the LFP battery, we don’t have anything to share at this point," a Rivian spokesperson said this week. She would only concede that LFPs will open up an "entry-level price point" for its R1 EVs in early 2024.
...
This curious caginess—shared by multiple automakers—raises an uncomfortable question: Are they hiding something? The cynical take is yes, an automaker like Rivian is reluctant to publicize any downsides that could hamper sales of already pricey vehicle; the R1T starts at $73,000. A more positive interpretation: The company is simply communicating the baseline metrics the EPA requires, and doesn't think the public needs more specific information.
...
Meanwhile, lawsuits are piling up over automakers overstating and obscuring vehicle range, including a recent case against Tesla, Mashable reports. "

- rest at These Batteries Could Drive EV Adoption: Why Are Carmakers So Tight-Lipped? | PCMag

More fiction, as LFP do better in some tests than NCM.
And high "intensity" usage can be addressed with a larger LFP battery.

 

[Van]

Why it has taken decades to bring "home grown" LFP storage batteries to market. But China has figured out how to produce the cells? Has the fossil fuel industry hindered development?

 

[KenH]

More fiction, as LFP do better in some tests than NCM.
And high "intensity" usage can be addressed with a larger LFP battery.

How long before retired folks, like me, will be able to pay around $25,000 or so for one of these fancy LFP cars and will it have a range over 400 miles and that can be filled up in 5 minutes like I can with my 2021 Nissan Sentra?

 

[KenH]

Has the fossil fuel industry hindered development?

Do you have any proof?