Icon,
A personal opinion question for you. Where do you think man ever got the idea he could determine his own salvation or have a part in it, when, God is the Creator? God wrote the Bible, He is the One who is Holy, and He makes the rules. God provides all we need for salvation. It seems to be just by thinking about it, that it is the height of arrogance to think that we have a part to play in salvation. We are a created, sinful, flawed being. We are the ones that sinned. In our natural state, we are self centered, and the last thing on our mind is pleasing the Lord.
Man freely choosing in a sinful state just makes no sense. We should thank God everyday, for choosing us, giving us the faith to believe, and giving us a new heart in the form of the Holy Spirit.
SN,
The effects of the fall are total in that they are all pervasive.
When anyone is searching through scripture they can see the cumulative effects manifest in outward actions, plus inward thoughts;
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Cain's offering was not acceptable, it was man made religion.He offered what he wanted to instead of what was acceptable....
We see more on the inward thoughts of fallen mankind in psalm 10;
10 Why standest thou afar off, O Lord? why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble?
2
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3
For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth.
4
The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God:
God is not in all his thoughts
5
His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6
He hath said in his heart,[
QUOTE] I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.[/QUOTE]
7
His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
8
He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.
9
He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den:
he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor,
when he draweth him into his net.
10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.
11
He hath said in his heart,
God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
12 Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God?
QUOTE] he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.
[/QUOTE]
14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.
15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man: seek out his wickedness till thou find none.
16 The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
17 Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.
This psalm tells us the inner motives of all sinners[in red] in a way that we can know for sure.In common grace the outward manifestations of this wickedness are restrained by God so as it is not total anarchy....and that only as part of God's longsuffering...bearing with the sin of the reprobates only long enough to allow all the elect to come into the ARK.....Christ Jesus:thumbsup:
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea,
also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
OLD REGULAR also got right at it where Paul shows the downward spiral in Romans 1;
God through the Apostle Paul reveals in the 1st Chapter of Romans the mind of man in his natural state. The wonder of it all is that God chose to save even one of us. But praise God He did. That is the Grace of Holy God and it seems that so many will not accept that truth.
The verse that is mis-used much fits in here describing the noetic effects of the fall;
25
I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:
28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
eople complain that I cut and paste
