Exposing the roots of the Arizona immigration law

[Salty]

I disagree. When I'm walking down the street in compliance with the laws of the land. And I've done nothing to raise supsion at my behavior other than going down a different neighborhood than usual. And the Police can stop me when they feel like to ask for my "Papers". How is that not a hinderance to liberty? If I commit a crime. Ok fine I've limited my own liberty. But otherwise not.

I have been in a situation that a police officer stopped me. I was not doing anything wrong. But under the circumstances, he thought it was best to check it out. He was very courteous - after seeing all was ok - wished me a good day. Sometimes a cop only has a gut feeling. And I had no problem with his actions.

Now, supposed a crime was committed, many of us would all be complaining the cop was not doing his job. Until you walk in his shoes...

 

[Revmitchell]

I have been in a situation that a police officer stopped me. I was not doing anything wrong. But under the circumstances, he thought it was best to check it out. He was very courteous - after seeing all was ok - wished me a good day. Sometimes a cop only has a gut feeling. And I had no problem with his actions.

Now, supposed a crime was committed, many of us would all be complaining the cop was not doing his job. Until you walk in his shoes...

You are debating an intentional strawman. The real intent is open borders. But they cannot legitimately argue for that so they push to ignore laws based on false and exaggerated arguments.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Then my friend the consept of liberty eludes you.

No sir. Liberty is a two way street in a country of law. If one does not obey the law there isn't any liberty. If you don't like the law, go to the ballot boxes but I would prefer only legal registered votes to vote.
Law enforcement can only do a couple of things, watch and check out danger or what looks out of place or tell you we will try and get the ones who killed or robed or what ever.

Also I think any US citizens or legal aliens should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for hiding illegal aliens or helping them elude the law.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Racial profiling .....is that really the BIG issue? Is it not hypocritical to discriminate against Police officers that are on the front lines in LAW ENFORCEMENT? Who has become the judge now? Who are these illegals and liberals joining forces against law enforcment trying to judge their "officers" motives with the race card? Why is Gloria Estefan and Shakera standing up for illegals....seems bias? Maybe alot of their records sales might suffer?

 

[Bob Alkire]

Who are these illegals and liberals joining forces against law enforcment trying to judge their "officers" motives with the race card?

Here is the problem so many of us can not understand, why are they arrested so many times? Some body or groups of people are covering for them and we are not enforcing our laws to the fullest. I understand this isn't a problem to most of us until something due to lack of enforcement happens to us, then it is a major problem.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/sexandmetro/2010/04/30/arizona-illegal-alien-crime-wave-continues/
In the population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.
They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.
　
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/jan/illegal-immigrant-gangs-commit-most-u-s-crime
I have not done the leg work to know if the FBI is correct but I'll take there word for it for right now. This is why people get so upset about this. Should they be held to the laws of our country?
Criminal street gangs—mostly comprised of illegal immigrants—are responsible for the majority of violent crimes in the United States and are the primary distributors of most illicit drugs.
The alarming, but not surprising, information is revealed in a new report published by the Justice Department’s National Gang Intelligence Center (NGIC), an FBI task force created in 2005 to curb the growing threat of violent gangs in the U.S. The NGIC teams up with state and local law enforcement agencies throughout the nation to enforce, study and intercept gangs and has published several reports documenting their activities.
The agency’s latest publication has not been made public but a national newspaper revealed some of its findings this week. It says that up to 80% of crime in the U.S. is committed by gangs and that gang membership in this country has grown to 1 million, an increase of 200,000 in the last few years.
　

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No sir. Liberty is a two way street in a country of law. If one does not obey the law there isn't any liberty. If you don't like the law, go to the ballot boxes but I would prefer only legal registered votes to vote.
Law enforcement can only do a couple of things, watch and check out danger or what looks out of place or tell you we will try and get the ones who killed or robed or what ever.

Also I think any US citizens or legal aliens should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for hiding illegal aliens or helping them elude the law.

Are you suggesting that I'm hiding illegal aliens because I'm of hispanic decent? I'm not. And I don't like the problem any more than you do. I just don't think allowing for LEO's to randomly ask people off the street for their "papers" is a good policy and that its an assault on liberty. Illegals who are caught in the commision of a crime should be immediately deported. Illegals should not be educated in our schools. Illegals should not be able to obtain employment in our country. Illegals should not receive migrant workers welfare. Illegals should not be abel to rent property in our country. Deal with these things first and effectively and you won't have a problem.

 

[Revmitchell]

Are you suggesting that I'm hiding illegal aliens because I'm of hispanic decent? I'm not. And I don't like the problem any more than you do. I just don't think allowing for LEO's to randomly ask people off the street for their "papers" is a good policy and that its an assault on liberty.

If you think this is what is in that bill you need to do research. Its not

 

[Bob Alkire]

Are you suggesting that I'm hiding illegal aliens because I'm of hispanic decent?

Did I say any such thing? NO!!!

I just don't think allowing for LEO's to randomly ask people off the street for their "papers" is a good policy and that its an assault on liberty.

I've heard what you are saying by many groups and over many things. I have been ask for ID many times as I've told you, it does not bother me, I was in places where people who look like me aren't for the most part and maybe 5% just walking by.

Illegals should not be educated in our schools. Illegals should not be able to obtain employment in our country. Illegals should not receive migrant workers welfare. Illegals should not be abel to rent property in our country. Deal with these things first and effectively and you won't have a problem.

I know in places like LA area , Phoenix and Miami to name a few the government knows where the illegals are but when some are rounded up we have all the folks who are for them protesting and saying we are walking on their rights.

Illegals who are caught in the commision of a crime should be immediately deported.

Partly correct, all illegals if breaking some law or not, (they are breaking the law by being here) who are caught should be deported immediately.
But if checking isn't done well, they will never get caught. If law enforcement knows where so many are, why not round them up and lead them out of the country? Like trying to be sure of only registered voters vote but many don't want a picture voter ID. Simple way to handle the problem.

My friend we will never agree, but such is life. How many times have you been checked walking down the street in places you were out of place( many times for me)? I've had it happen in Hispanic, African American area and Jewish area, as I said before, I was glad to see law enforcement at work. I believe we don't keep our rights if we don't live up to our responsibility, that might mean for me to call the police and say I saw blank or I know or believe blank person should not be here and so on.

 

[Dragoon68]

... I just don't think allowing for LEO's to randomly ask people off the street for their "papers" is a good policy and that its an assault on liberty. ...

I don't have a problem with law enforcement asking for identification if they have a reason to suspect someone is not a legal resident.

It's no different than setting up a random road block to check driver license and certainly no worse that requiring everyone to show valid identification to board an airplane when it really doesn't matter who you are and you haven't even done anything to arouse suspicion.

 

[just-want-peace]

I don't have a problem with law enforcement asking for identification if they have a reason to suspect someone is not a legal resident.

It's no different than setting up a random road block to check driver license and certainly no worse that requiring everyone to show valid identification to board an airplane when it really doesn't matter who you are and you haven't even done anything to arouse suspicion.

Or those pesky roadside stops on NY eve to check for DUI.

But hey, if the libs are so adamant to discredit this law, that just means that there is more common sense than emotion involved, so it must be a good law!:thumbsup:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't have a problem with law enforcement asking for identification if they have a reason to suspect someone is not a legal resident.

It's no different than setting up a random road block to check driver license and certainly no worse that requiring everyone to show valid identification to board an airplane when it really doesn't matter who you are and you haven't even done anything to arouse suspicion.

It is different. One is you are walking down the street minding your own business and Leo's require your papers just because they feel like targeting you.

The other is you are using a vehicle normally targeted by terrorist. You are using a companies product and they can require you to reveal something about yourself in order to do so.

And note this is always. And I mean always how it starts. Germany 1934. People said the same thing about reporting to Nazi officials their papers. It wasn't long before Jews had to have yellow stars on their outer garments and people were cool with for the very same reason you are cool with having to report your "papers" to Leo under any circumstance. It just shows you've lost the consept of why and how this country was formed. Liberty! People are to be left to their own devices unless they break the law. The fact is over the years our country has become more legislated that like a frog in boiling water that is gradually raised in temperature it never jumps out until its finally boilled to death. However, do it all at once and it will jump out. For us it started in 1912 with the first income tax. Then progressed in the 1930 with FDR's Neal Deal and got worse with Johnson's great society. And every years since more laws encacted slowly limiting people's liberty. Now we are just a hop, skip, and a jump away from brown shirts harrassing the elderly, limiting what you can and cannot purchase, people that are suspect by nothing other than how they look are subject to unwarrented searches. And discent is dealt with by sending people to labor camps. Note most schools read the book 1984 as a view into the extreme of socialism however people don't realize George Orwell was a communist and his books animal farm and 1984 was how he saw the development of the capitalistic world. In our case he seems to be prophetic. and all they while you chant its not a real issue because I'm more than happy to give up liberty so that I can obtain more security. Our great country wasn't based on that. It was based on a man providing for himself and being self reliant for everything to include his own security thats why we have the second amendment! Yet no more. We seem to be going down the age old path that ends in tyranny!

 

[Revmitchell]

It is different. One is you are walking down the street minding your own business and Leo's require your papers just because they feel like targeting you.

The other is you are using a vehicle normally targeted by terrorist. You are using a companies product and they can require you to reveal something about yourself in order to do so.

And note this is always. And I mean always how it starts. Germany 1934. People said the same thing about reporting to Nazi officials their papers. It wasn't long before Jews had to have yellow stars on their outer garments and people were cool with for the very same reason you are cool with having to report your "papers" to Leo under any circumstance. It just shows you've lost the consept of why and how this country was formed. Liberty! People are to be left to their own devices unless they break the law. The fact is over the years our country has become more legislated that like a frog in boiling water that is gradually raised in temperature it never jumps out until its finally boilled to death. However, do it all at once and it will jump out. For us it started in 1912 with the first income tax. Then progressed in the 1930 with FDR's Neal Deal and got worse with Johnson's great society. And every years since more laws encacted slowly limiting people's liberty. Now we are just a hop, skip, and a jump away from brown shirts harrassing the elderly, limiting what you can and cannot purchase, people that are suspect by nothing other than how they look are subject to unwarrented searches. And discent is dealt with by sending people to labor camps. Note most schools read the book 1984 as a view into the extreme of socialism however people don't realize George Orwell was a communist and his books animal farm and 1984 was how he saw the development of the capitalistic world. In our case he seems to be prophetic. and all they while you chant its not a real issue because I'm more than happy to give up liberty so that I can obtain more security. Our great country wasn't based on that. It was based on a man providing for himself and being self reliant for everything to include his own security thats why we have the second amendment! Yet no more. We seem to be going down the age old path that ends in tyranny!

You do not know what is in this bill. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your accusations about the Arizona bill are false. YOu need to do some research before speaking any further on it.

 

[targus]

... you are walking down the street minding your own business and Leo's require your papers just because they feel like targeting you.

You are wrong.

Wrong - wrong - wrong.

It has been pointed out to you several times by many here on the board that the law does not permit this.

Why do you persist in this willful ignorance of what the bill says?

 

[Revmitchell]

It is different. One is you are walking down the street minding your own business and Leo's require your papers just because they feel like targeting you.

Provide for us the exact section of the bill that calls for this.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are wrong.

Wrong - wrong - wrong.

It has been pointed out to you several times by many here on the board that the law does not permit this.

Why do you persist in this willful ignorance of what the bill says?

I am fully convinced that those who do this are actually wanting illegals to flow in uninhibited. But since they cannot defend that they attack legitimate law in this manner so as to win by the public perception rather than on actual merits.

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree. When I'm walking down the street in compliance with the laws of the land. And I've done nothing to raise supsion at my behavior other than going down a different neighborhood than usual. And the Police can stop me when they feel like to ask for my "Papers". How is that not a hinderance to liberty? If I commit a crime. Ok fine I've limited my own liberty. But otherwise not.

This is just dishonest. You know it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You do not know what is in this bill. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your accusations about the Arizona bill are false. YOu need to do some research before speaking any further on it.

So you say. Lets look at the provision that stands out to me

Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

A reasonable attempt in the legal definition can be defined in this according to the law dictionary

what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another. Typically, a person is promised a profit or other benefit, and in reliance takes steps in reliance on the promise, only to find the statements or promises were not true or were exaggerated.

So a reasonable attempt can inlcude not only a logical step by step process of determination but the use of information gained by people who are offered a benefit. Also note how legal Contact is defined

The terms lawful and legal differ in that the former contemplates the substance of law, whereas the latter alludes to the form of law. A lawful act is authorized, sanctioned, or not forbidden by law

Note how the differentiation works

A legal act is performed in accordance with the forms and usages of law, or in a technical manner

There are restrictions upon this type of contact with regard to law enforcement. Now look how Lawful is applied.

For example, a contract or will, executed without the required formalities, might be regarded as invalid or illegal, but could not be described as unlawful.

or not as restrictive. So in essence in order to determine the status of a citizen walking down the street in Arizona a LEO is not restricted in contact to determine the citizens status. A LEO can also provide a benefit to another person (like payment) to obtain information as to the subjects illegal status whether valid or not. In fact, as you get clarification of the legal terms of this passage it is clear there is not restriction on who may be asked for papers, or occassion under which those papers need to be provided, or if papers are provided you may still be arrested (detained from motion incapable of self direction which has other legal distinctions) based on information given by an informant who provided such under provided profit by the LEO's themselves. If this is not an assault on liberty I don't know what is.

 

[Revmitchell]

So you say. Lets look at the provision that stands out to me

A reasonable attempt in the legal definition can be defined in this according to the law dictionary So a reasonable attempt can inlcude not only a logical step by step process of determination but the use of information gained by people who are offered a benefit. Also note how legal Contact is defined Note how the differentiation works There are restrictions upon this type of contact with regard to law enforcement. Now look how Lawful is applied. or not as restrictive. So in essence in order to determine the status of a citizen walking down the street in Arizona a LEO is not restricted in contact to determine the citizens status. A LEO can also provide a benefit to another person (like payment) to obtain information as to the subjects illegal status whether valid or not. In fact, as you get clarification of the legal terms of this passage it is clear there is not restriction on who may be asked for papers, or occassion under which those papers need to be provided, or if papers are provided you may still be arrested (detained from motion incapable of self direction which has other legal distinctions) based on information given by an informant who provided such under provided profit by the LEO's themselves. If this is not an assault on liberty I don't know what is.

First you need to provide an link or source. Second you need to acknowledge this bill mirrors the federal bill already in existence. And third it is not "so I say" it is fact rather than your personal attempt to twist it.


So tell me what are the requirements in the bill before law enforcement can ask for id?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First you need to provide an link or source. Second you need to acknowledge this bill mirrors the federal bill already in existence.

Ok here is the link to the Arizona bill http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm

My quote from this bill is the second bulleted statement under Provisions in that bill. My legal defintions are obtained from farlex legal dictionary.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok here is the link to the Arizona bill http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm

My quote from this bill is the second bulleted statement under Provisions in that bill. My legal defintions are obtained from farlex legal dictionary.

From your link:

Stipulates that a law enforcement official or agency cannot solely consider race, color or national origin when implementing these provisions, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution.

· Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

Ø A valid Arizona driver license.

Ø A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

Ø A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

Ø A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.

Your false accusations have now been debunked.