Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That's why God gives Faith.
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Faith # 2
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Only those whom God saves have it in the biblical sense. Trusting in the arm of the flesh (self-caused belief as a condition for salvation) is sin.
37818
Well-Known Member
God gives faith to all mankind through nature revelation, Romans 10:17-18, Psalms 19:4. But natural revelation does not tell anyone was redeemed by an only particular redemption.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
He gives faith to the elect.
37818
Well-Known Member
The "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 precedes being "saved" and so having the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23.
37818
Well-Known Member
Wow. Universalism.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” 2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV 1900)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Not really. Salvation is in the new birth from which faith grows as a fruit. Plus saved when? Now or in the resurrection? Or both?
This is not true. No one is ever saved by knowing God exists via his creation.
Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
To the elect, not to all humanity. Explain how you see universalism in the particular gift of faith to the elect.
No it doesn't.
Read verses 4 & 5.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
~ Ephesians 2:4-5
37818
Well-Known Member
Literally not "the faith." It wouid be an absurd false statement otherwise.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are taking Paul to task of all people. The faith is Christian faith, a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Only the saved have it. The other types are of the flesh and cannot save.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not really now saved by grace through faith? Ephesians 2:8, ". . . by grace are ye saved through faith; . . ."
37818
Well-Known Member
In 2 Thessalonians 3:2 Paul was speaking of men not having "the faith," of course not having the Christian faith. ". . . η πιστις."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But, Jesus, not us, is the author of our faith. If you came up with it, it's the sinful arm of the flesh trust.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Through faith as it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
37818
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Now that is your private interpretation. The notion one must have the fruit of the Spirit in order to be saved.
Hi Dave,
Long time no see!
Post #6
Faith comes by hearing.
My Comment: “Faith then cometh by hearing” (Rom 10:17), however, in context, the previous verse and the following verses say the Jews heard and refused. So, “Hearing” must include “Obedience” as Paul says in Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26 like bookends on the Book of Romans. They ALL heard but some did not obey. (Also see John 3:36 - “Believeth Not” means not to Obey)
But...hearing comes by the word of God.
Either this means that the word of God enables all men to hear ( receive ) His words,
or, God's word "begets" ( or births ) His elect by it.
Comparing the Scriptures,
I see that it is the latter.
My Comment: Ya know Dave, we believe God goes first (gratuitous) and gives his grace to the Elect, however, it’s to BOTH those Elected to Grace (Rom 11:5) and those Elected to Glory (Rom 8:30). God also gives grace to those who choose to be the Non-Elect now or those who will always choose to be the Non-Elect. God can provide this grace in mysterious ways only known to Him. This happens during the Calling and the Non-Elect refuse the Calling. There sometimes could be physical Impediments and we believe God takes those into account.
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
My Comment: Lydia’s heart was “Opened” in verse 14. This we would refer to as Actual Grace. You are not saved by it alone.God provides grace to make it possible for man to come to Him. Verse 15 speaks of Baptism. This is where Lydia was Justified. The Actual Grace Lydia received in verse 14 led to her Sanctifying Grace she received in verse 15. Actual Grace is the grace that makes you free, that is, your Will Free supernaturally (John 8:32, 36).
“Opening the Heart” = Actual Grace
“Pouring into the Heart” = Sanctifying Grace (Justification) (Rom 5:5). In John 19:34, the “Pouring out” of the Water is the Waters of Baptism! Pouring out or shedding (Matt 26:28). Poured out of Christ’s Heart and INTO our hearts. Also, in the previous verse (Acts 16:13) the women, including Lydia, were “Praying”. The “Sword of the Spirit” is “Prayer” (Eph 6:17-18). The “Sword” opens the heart.
James 1:18. <---- Of His own will "begat" He us...with the word of truth. Our will has nothing to do with it
My Comment: Yes it was God’s Will for us to be begotten by the Gospel. It is also God’s Will for All men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). In the beginning our Will has not the ability to come to Christ. Prior to our justification, God goes first and puts His grace in our Will. Then, with our Supernatural Free Will, we have the ability to move to Baptism which is where we believe we are Justified. Faith must be present.
John 1:11-13. <---- We receive Him because we are born "of" God....the new birth does not rely on us believing, but the other way around. Also notice that this says that those that received Him, were ( past tense, already ) born of God. This fits perfectly with Acts of the Apostles 16:14, where God opened Lydia's heart, so that she attended to the words of Paul.
My Comment: This “Power” is God’s Grace. We believe the “Power” is Actual Grace and not Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace is what we call the grace that Justifies is.
Ephesians 5:26. <--- Sanctified and cleansed by the washing of "water" by the word.
My Comment: This verse is Baptism - Sanctifying Grace. This “Laver” or “Washing” is also used in Titus 3:5. The “Word” here refers to the words of the sacrament which is “I baptize thee, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” while pouring the water. (Matt 28:19) The priest pronounces these words “in the Person of Christ”. (Like in 2 Cor 2:10)
John 15:3 <----- Clean because of the word which Christ had spoken to them.
My Comment: We believe this is Actual Grace present AFTER Justification. Being cleansed by the Word is one of the “Pruning Hooks”. Other pruning hooks are tribulations, afflictions, rebukes…All of the pruning hooks are used in an ongoing process. Remember, these verses are describing someone already grafted into the vine. This is the pruning stage. We turn to Christ AfTER justification through Actual Grace as shown in Zechariah 1:3.
John 17:17 <----- Christ asks the Father to sanctify those He is praying for through the truth. His word is truth, and they are sanctified through it.
My Comment: This is not referring to an initial calling but is referring to Christ interceding to the Father for the holiness of the apostles. Christ is preparing to send them out. This is about a special ministry or vocation. This is not about the Elect vs the Non-Elect. If this was about God begetting His Elect, it would seem He had already done that when the Apostles were originally Called and Justified.
Romans 10:8 <------ The word was near the believers at Rome. It was in their mouths and in their hearts.Who put it there? God did, when He sanctified His people through it.
My Comment: This is Actual Grace. God puts grace into our Wills first to make them Free so we can choose to come to Him. This leads us to Justification which we believe is initially through Baptism, the Seal of Faith. The parallel verse is Deut 30:14 which says, “But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it” . This shows you have to do something using your supernatural Free Will.
Also, see Hebrews 8:10, where God promises to put His word into the believer's hearts and minds..which is why it was "nigh" or near to those which had believed on Christ at Rome.
My Comment: This is Actual Grace. Also, every time I say Actual Grace, this grace is Prevenient and gratuitous. It is also a transient grace.
In other places, we see that Jesus makes appeal "to those that have ears to hear"...
Matthew 11:15,
My Comment: Matt 11:9 says, “For this is he of whom it is written: Behold I send my angel before my face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.” Notice is says “Prepare” - we call Preparatory Graces. Through the prophets the Jews were prepared yet they “refused” the prophets. Prophecy is Preparatory Grace (1 Cor 12:10). An example of that is in Ezek 2:5. The DRV uses the word “Forbear” which means “Refuse”. To “Refuse” is an act of one’s “Supernatural Free Will”. You cannot “Refuse” something you didn’t “Receive”.
Matthew 13:19
My Comment: To answer this, if you go back to verse 15 it says, “For the heart of this people is grown gross” - (grown = Waxed, Gross = Dull) - This is a quote from Is 6:10. In Isaiah, God sent His prophet to bring them back to Him (Prevenient Grace). That’s proof alone that these people received Sufficient Grace to not be blind or deaf. The Parable of the Sower in Matt 13 shows that God provides graces for all but, due to man’s choices, the seed produces no fruit. “Grown” or “Waxed” shows that man has “refused” God’s graces in different ways to cause hardness of heart.
Matthew 13:43
My Comment: First, let me quote St. Augustine: “He said, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”5 For who was standing before Him without his bodily ears? What other ears then did He seek for, but those of the inner man?” [Augustine, Sermon (Benedictine) 88.4.4] So, from what I understand, this “Hearing” is referring to those willing to look at the parable in a mystical way. Here’s another quote: This means , “That is, Let him understand who has understanding, because all these things are to be understood mystically, and not literally.” (Catena Aurea) So, this particular verse is about seeing the parable in a mystical way. If it was about God begetting us I would say this: Just to be in the presence of Christ and hear Him say, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear”and to hear the parables, is Prevenient Grace! The only way you don’t come to Christ after that is by “Refusing” or some physical impediment.
Mark 4:9,
My Comment: same as above
Mark 4:23
My Comment: same as above
, and many other places.
In other words, some do have ears to hear, and some don't.
My Comment: It is not about the ability to hear or not hear but, rather, to hear or to “Refuse” to hear or it’s about hearing in a mystical way.
Long time no see!
Post #6
Faith comes by hearing.
My Comment: “Faith then cometh by hearing” (Rom 10:17), however, in context, the previous verse and the following verses say the Jews heard and refused. So, “Hearing” must include “Obedience” as Paul says in Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26 like bookends on the Book of Romans. They ALL heard but some did not obey. (Also see John 3:36 - “Believeth Not” means not to Obey)
But...hearing comes by the word of God.
Either this means that the word of God enables all men to hear ( receive ) His words,
or, God's word "begets" ( or births ) His elect by it.
Comparing the Scriptures,
I see that it is the latter.
My Comment: Ya know Dave, we believe God goes first (gratuitous) and gives his grace to the Elect, however, it’s to BOTH those Elected to Grace (Rom 11:5) and those Elected to Glory (Rom 8:30). God also gives grace to those who choose to be the Non-Elect now or those who will always choose to be the Non-Elect. God can provide this grace in mysterious ways only known to Him. This happens during the Calling and the Non-Elect refuse the Calling. There sometimes could be physical Impediments and we believe God takes those into account.
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
My Comment: Lydia’s heart was “Opened” in verse 14. This we would refer to as Actual Grace. You are not saved by it alone.God provides grace to make it possible for man to come to Him. Verse 15 speaks of Baptism. This is where Lydia was Justified. The Actual Grace Lydia received in verse 14 led to her Sanctifying Grace she received in verse 15. Actual Grace is the grace that makes you free, that is, your Will Free supernaturally (John 8:32, 36).
“Opening the Heart” = Actual Grace
“Pouring into the Heart” = Sanctifying Grace (Justification) (Rom 5:5). In John 19:34, the “Pouring out” of the Water is the Waters of Baptism! Pouring out or shedding (Matt 26:28). Poured out of Christ’s Heart and INTO our hearts. Also, in the previous verse (Acts 16:13) the women, including Lydia, were “Praying”. The “Sword of the Spirit” is “Prayer” (Eph 6:17-18). The “Sword” opens the heart.
James 1:18. <---- Of His own will "begat" He us...with the word of truth. Our will has nothing to do with it
My Comment: Yes it was God’s Will for us to be begotten by the Gospel. It is also God’s Will for All men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). In the beginning our Will has not the ability to come to Christ. Prior to our justification, God goes first and puts His grace in our Will. Then, with our Supernatural Free Will, we have the ability to move to Baptism which is where we believe we are Justified. Faith must be present.
John 1:11-13. <---- We receive Him because we are born "of" God....the new birth does not rely on us believing, but the other way around. Also notice that this says that those that received Him, were ( past tense, already ) born of God. This fits perfectly with Acts of the Apostles 16:14, where God opened Lydia's heart, so that she attended to the words of Paul.
My Comment: This “Power” is God’s Grace. We believe the “Power” is Actual Grace and not Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace is what we call the grace that Justifies is.
Ephesians 5:26. <--- Sanctified and cleansed by the washing of "water" by the word.
My Comment: This verse is Baptism - Sanctifying Grace. This “Laver” or “Washing” is also used in Titus 3:5. The “Word” here refers to the words of the sacrament which is “I baptize thee, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” while pouring the water. (Matt 28:19) The priest pronounces these words “in the Person of Christ”. (Like in 2 Cor 2:10)
John 15:3 <----- Clean because of the word which Christ had spoken to them.
My Comment: We believe this is Actual Grace present AFTER Justification. Being cleansed by the Word is one of the “Pruning Hooks”. Other pruning hooks are tribulations, afflictions, rebukes…All of the pruning hooks are used in an ongoing process. Remember, these verses are describing someone already grafted into the vine. This is the pruning stage. We turn to Christ AfTER justification through Actual Grace as shown in Zechariah 1:3.
John 17:17 <----- Christ asks the Father to sanctify those He is praying for through the truth. His word is truth, and they are sanctified through it.
My Comment: This is not referring to an initial calling but is referring to Christ interceding to the Father for the holiness of the apostles. Christ is preparing to send them out. This is about a special ministry or vocation. This is not about the Elect vs the Non-Elect. If this was about God begetting His Elect, it would seem He had already done that when the Apostles were originally Called and Justified.
Romans 10:8 <------ The word was near the believers at Rome. It was in their mouths and in their hearts.Who put it there? God did, when He sanctified His people through it.
My Comment: This is Actual Grace. God puts grace into our Wills first to make them Free so we can choose to come to Him. This leads us to Justification which we believe is initially through Baptism, the Seal of Faith. The parallel verse is Deut 30:14 which says, “But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it” . This shows you have to do something using your supernatural Free Will.
Also, see Hebrews 8:10, where God promises to put His word into the believer's hearts and minds..which is why it was "nigh" or near to those which had believed on Christ at Rome.
My Comment: This is Actual Grace. Also, every time I say Actual Grace, this grace is Prevenient and gratuitous. It is also a transient grace.
In other places, we see that Jesus makes appeal "to those that have ears to hear"...
Matthew 11:15,
My Comment: Matt 11:9 says, “For this is he of whom it is written: Behold I send my angel before my face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.” Notice is says “Prepare” - we call Preparatory Graces. Through the prophets the Jews were prepared yet they “refused” the prophets. Prophecy is Preparatory Grace (1 Cor 12:10). An example of that is in Ezek 2:5. The DRV uses the word “Forbear” which means “Refuse”. To “Refuse” is an act of one’s “Supernatural Free Will”. You cannot “Refuse” something you didn’t “Receive”.
Matthew 13:19
My Comment: To answer this, if you go back to verse 15 it says, “For the heart of this people is grown gross” - (grown = Waxed, Gross = Dull) - This is a quote from Is 6:10. In Isaiah, God sent His prophet to bring them back to Him (Prevenient Grace). That’s proof alone that these people received Sufficient Grace to not be blind or deaf. The Parable of the Sower in Matt 13 shows that God provides graces for all but, due to man’s choices, the seed produces no fruit. “Grown” or “Waxed” shows that man has “refused” God’s graces in different ways to cause hardness of heart.
Matthew 13:43
My Comment: First, let me quote St. Augustine: “He said, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”5 For who was standing before Him without his bodily ears? What other ears then did He seek for, but those of the inner man?” [Augustine, Sermon (Benedictine) 88.4.4] So, from what I understand, this “Hearing” is referring to those willing to look at the parable in a mystical way. Here’s another quote: This means , “That is, Let him understand who has understanding, because all these things are to be understood mystically, and not literally.” (Catena Aurea) So, this particular verse is about seeing the parable in a mystical way. If it was about God begetting us I would say this: Just to be in the presence of Christ and hear Him say, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear”and to hear the parables, is Prevenient Grace! The only way you don’t come to Christ after that is by “Refusing” or some physical impediment.
Mark 4:9,
My Comment: same as above
Mark 4:23
My Comment: same as above
, and many other places.
In other words, some do have ears to hear, and some don't.
My Comment: It is not about the ability to hear or not hear but, rather, to hear or to “Refuse” to hear or it’s about hearing in a mystical way.
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