Faith Precedes Regeneration - Note What Spurgeon Said

[Dave G]

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yet, you did make two contradictory statements. Are you claiming that you have perfect faith so that you have perfect righteousness?

Now your falsly accusing me, I never stated I had perfect faith.

No one is saved without a perfect righteousness. God's elect have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(credited) to them.

Your right, No one is saved until they are justified. (The word righteous and justified in the greek is the same word.. to be declaired righteous is to be justified.

We are justified by faith.

"God reckons the believing person as having done all righteousness, though he has not done any, and though his faith is not righteousness. The work of Christ for us is the object of faith; the Spirit’s work in us is that which produces this faith: Without the touch of the rod the water would not have gushed forth; yet it was the rock and not the rod, that contained the water. ...

Faith is not perfection. Yet only by perfection can we be saved; either our own or another’s. That which is imperfect cannot justify, and an imperfect faith could not in any sense be a righteousness. If it is to justify, it must be perfect. It must be like “the Lamb, without blemish and without spot” . God has asked and provided a perfect righteousness; He nowhere asks nor expects a perfect faith. An earthenware pitcher can convey water to a traveller’s thirsty lips as well as one of gold; nay, a broken vessel, even if there be but “a sherd to take water from the pit” (Isa 30:14), will suffice."

- Horatius Bonar, "God Does Not Count Faith as the Righteousness"

- rest at God Does Not Count Faith as the Righteousness, by Horatius Bonar | For the Elect Alone (wordpress.com)

Abraham believed God and God accredited him with righteousness.

You want to take faith out of the equation. And Call God a liar.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your comments glorify man's ability to merit God's salvation. You have man being the one who determines salvation rather than God. You place God below man. You make God man's personal genie who only acts according to man's choices.

Thats why I refuse to talk to you must times.

You bear false witness.

No one merits something because they trust someone else to do the work for them, Your blinded by your theology so you can not see reality

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Eternally Grateful ,
It is very kind of you to agree with my post #26, but my reason for posting was to show that Justification cannot precede regeneration. God takes the guilty sinner and gives him new birth in Christ Jesus; then the sinner is brought to faith and repentance. God opened Lydia's heart; then she was able to respond to the words spoken by Paul. i Corinthians 2:14 is the key text.
However, I believe that the New Birth does not always come all at once. People sometimes experience awakening, when, for the first time they start to think about the things of eternity. They may experience conviction, when they come to see that their lives are sinful, but they may have no idea what to do about that and have no knowledge of Jesus Christ. Cornelius probably came under this heading, and if you read John Bunyan's autobiography, you will find that he underwent months of the most painful conviction of sin before finding peace in Christ.. But the New Birth ends in repentance of sins and faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross before God declares the sinner righteous (i.e. justifies him) on the basis of that work.

 

[KenH]

You want to take faith out of the equation.

Not at all. The source is God and the willingness to believe comes from God. He gives the gift of faith to His elect(Ephesians 2:1-10). There is not one single person for whom Christ died who will be lost. To teach such is to teach a false gospel.

 

[AustinC]

Thats why I refuse to talk to you must times.

You bear false witness.

No one merits something because they trust someone else to do the work for them, Your blinded by your theology so you can not see reality

I read what you wrote and speak truth.

You wrote:
no,

because man can not save himself. if he could, he would be saved by works

man can only receive in faith the work of God which saved him. which is not a work.. he basically says yes God. or no God

That's not having a part, or working for ones salvation.

I responded:
Your comments glorify man's ability to merit God's salvation. You have man being the one who determines salvation rather than God. You place God below man. You make God man's personal genie who only acts according to man's choices.

 

[Brightfame52]

Furthermore faith cannot come before regeneration because before that, men are yet in the flesh and consequently cannot please God, which Faith is a grace that the regenerate have that does please God Heb 11:6. However they which are in the flesh cannot please God says scripture authority Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now this can only be the unregenerate unbeliever who is in the flesh, because the believer who has the Spirit isnt in the flesh says scripture authority Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[DaveXR650]

So which are you saying, and there are only three choices:

1) Salvation is all of God(based totally on what God has done and continues to do).

2) Salvation is all of man(based totally on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

3) Salvation is a cooperative effort of God and man(based partly on what God has done and continues to do AND partly on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

What makes this hard is that Spurgeon, and Owen for that matter, taught 1 theologically and preached 3 to people. I think that if a Calvinist starts telling people that they are not allowed to do anything or say they did anything he has gone too far and is mishandling the gospel. YOU have to come to Christ and believe the gospel and repent of your sins. If you don't like that you are taking on John Owen and Spurgeon.

But those guys would also tell you that your wrestling with these things, your conviction and struggle with faith and your decision are all part of God working his salvation in you because he has chosen you for this. Owen himself said that the only way we have a right to say we are elect is that we believe in Christ and he warned people not to put off this belief. So how do you put off doing something that is supposed to be a gift? Don't worry about it, just believe. But it is a gift as Owen also insisted.

MAJOR PROBLEM

Man is a fallen sinful linear thinking personality trying to understand a Personal Holy Infinite God

This is so true.

 

[KenH]

So how do you put off doing something that is supposed to be a gift?

God's elect do not put it off: Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power. - Psalm 110:3

The elect do not believe too "soon" nor too "late". The elect believe at God's appointed time.

As far as belief, what is one believing - that God gave them faith and they look to Him for everything involving their salvation; or that their "believing" made a difference in their salvation and not God alone by His sovereign grace?

And for that matter, believing in what? Some historical facts that even the devils believe(James 2:19), or that they are a lost sinner with no possibility of producing a righteousness in which God cannot find a fault and are driven to look to Christ and His perfect righteousness imputed to them so that they can stand before a perfectly holy God who will not clear the guilty(Numbers 14:18) and, thus, they look to Christ alone to have cleared them of their guilt.

 

[Brightfame52]

davexr650

YOU have to come to Christ and believe the gospel and repent of your sins.

All that comes with regeneration, they are the fruit and evidence of regeneration.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes. But there seems to be a disconnect here. Do YOU do it or not, no matter what the origin is? Because if you are going in a direction where "the gospel" is all about understanding soteriology and election that is a different gospel. Those things are important, especially on a theological forum, but they are not the gospel.

 

[DaveXR650]

When Owen, or Spurgeon for that matter, warn people not to persist in unbelief because to do so is to risk damnation they were not denying the truth of salvation being all of God. But were they out of line? If you persist in unbelief Christ cannot help you. That's from Owen. I assume it means that YOU are in danger of persisting in unbelief. Now if you do it it's proof that you are not elect. But the fact still is - you persisted in unbelief, you successfully resisted God's actual grace, and God eventually let you go on and respected your free will. That's what they preached. If anyone wants to take on the credentials of John Owen as being a good Calvinist then go ahead but it won't go well. It could be that some of you Calvinists out there need to reevaluate your understanding of the beliefs you so champion.

 

[KenH]

all about understanding soteriology and election that is a different gospel

The gospel is about the death of Christ on behalf of His people, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (He was named Jesus because He would save His people from their sins, Matthew 1:21). One must see himself as a sinner with no hope of saving himself and no way, no works to stand before a holy God with a perfect righteousness that presents him guiltless before God.

If one does not see himself as a helpless sinner, then which "Jesus" or which "Christ" is he believing in - and it does matter as there are false gospels:

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[KenH]

and God eventually let you go on and respected your free will

Man has no free will. That is a false teaching and I am so thankful that God delivered me from that false teaching and pointed me in the Scriptures to His absolute sovereignty over all things. There is no such thing as a random event, even if from our human perspective we think it is.

 

[DaveXR650]

The gospel in as few words as possible is indeed Christ and him crucified on behalf of his people. But one has to believe the gospel which is referred to as coming to Christ, or receiving Christ. There must be a belief and a reliance on Christ as your savior. This I believe is possible because of the Holy Spirit but there is an active believing, trusting and coming to Christ that YOU must do. That's why you have several instances of people saying "what should we do" after hearing preaching.

We just disagree on free will. I'm going with Edwards and the WCF which basically says we have free will when we are free to do what we are inclined to do. (And we are not inclined to really turn to God in any kind of a saving way, on our own). I agree also that there are no random events if you mean events that God did not know about and in his wisdom allow but I do not think that God directly does all events.

 

[KenH]

I'm going with Edwards and the WCF

I'm going with the Bible.

I agree also that there are no random events if you mean events that God did not know about and in his wisdom allow but I do not think that God directly does all events.

Then, no, we disagree. The only way to truly believe Romans 8:28 is if God is absolutely sovereign and not leaving anything up to "chance" or "randomness". I reject anything that has even a tinge of the false theology of Deism in it, that teaches that God leaves things to "chance" or "randomness". To attempt to mitigate Deism and say, "Well, God does intervene here and there but not always" is still a form of Deism and is not Biblical.

 

[AustinC]

I'm going with the Bible.



Then, no, we disagree. The only way to truly believe Romans 8:28 is if God is absolutely sovereign and not leaving anything up to "chance" or "randomness". I reject anything that has even a tinge of the false theology of Deism in it, that teaches that God leaves things to "chance" or "randomness". To attempt to mitigate Deism and say, "Well, God does intervene here and there but not always" is still a form of Deism and is not Biblical.

Agreed. Here is God's Sovereignty and appointment, even in the events that result in tribulation.

*Daniel 11:25-29*
And he shall stir up his power and his heart against the king of the south with a great army. And the king of the south shall wage war with an exceedingly great and mighty army, but he shall not stand, for plots shall be devised against him. Even those who eat his food shall break him. His army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain. And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed. And he shall return to his land with great wealth, but his heart shall be set against the holy covenant. And he shall work his will and return to his own land. “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

God has everything appointed to His time. There is no chance or randomness with God.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well Ken, saying you are going with the Bible instead of the WCF and Edwards is a little silly since they both rely heavily on - the Bible. Am I really supposed to take you at your word that you rely on the Bible but not them? That won't work.

There is a difference between God being sovereign and directly causing every single thing and the Bible does not teach that kind of determinism. It is a false choice that God either directly determines every single minute event or it's random chance.

Like I said before, knowing the definition of the gospel and believing with all your heart that God is sovereign will not save you. There is a direct belief and trust in Christ that is essential and YOU must do it. It is wrought in you by God, but you do it.

 

[KenH]

the Bible does not teach that kind of determinism

Yes, it does. To add some additional Bible verses to @AustinC's post above:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

And to quote from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology(in which he lists the verses above a little earlier in his book):

"The fact that God exercises such extreme control over all of creation is disturbing to many people, including some who claim to be Christians. Therefore, they attempt to distort the Scripture to support a false theology that allows them to maintain a sense of freedom and dignity, which they treasure above the truth and honor of God. But it is wicked to seek freedom from God. Those who love God are happy that he possesses absolute control over all things. They say with Isaiah 33:22, "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us," and they would not have it any other way. They are bold to say among the nations, "The Lord reigns!" (Psalms 96:10)."

 

[DaveXR650]

*Daniel 11:25-29*
And he shall stir up his power and his heart against the king of the south with a great army. And the king of the south shall wage war with an exceedingly great and mighty army, but he shall not stand, for plots shall be devised against him. Even those who eat his food shall break him. His army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain. And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed. And he shall return to his land with great wealth, but his heart shall be set against the holy covenant. And he shall work his will and return to his own land. “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

God has everything appointed to His time. There is no chance or randomness with God.

That's all true. What I mean by God not directly causing ever single event would be like in 2 Samuel 11:27 the last sentence where it says " But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord". David did that. Not the Lord. Nor did the Lord make him do it. The Lord did use it to cause the turmoil which later happened in the family. There is a difference between causing all movements of each molecule and being sovereign.