Faith? Where does it come from?

[TCassidy]

Scripture doesn't contradict itself. But here you have pitted one scripture against another so making the Bible contradict itself.

No, I haven't. Once again you display either an inability to understand simple declarative sentences or a dishonesty of intent.

Only a saved person can be "fully persuaded."

 

[TCassidy]

I don't believe an honest exposition of any verse is against the BB rules.

There was no "honest exposition of" scripture. But saying those who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" are lost is against the BB rules.

You said:

There are many who don't believe in particular redemption, including Peter who calls it a damnable heresy.

First, Peter is not discussing the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Second, saying we who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" believe a "damnable heresy" is saying, as did Peter, that we are lost and under condemnation and threat of destruction.

Time for you to either apologize of take a break from the BB and have a long talk with the Lord about your tendency toward extreme dishonesty in these discussions.

 

[Internet Theologian]

But you don't provide scripture as is demonstrated in this and your previous post. You only provide insults. And in the previous post I gave you the reasons why.

I've provided Scripture yet you have none to prove that faith is innate. Provide this or better yet stop your false teaching, eh?

I've alluded to your innate faith false gospel, and you're the one advocating innate faith, and then you are telling me that pointing out your Sola Finney belief is an insult? Really? LOL!

Now, go fetch a verse that proves biblical faith is the same as trusting a bridge, chair, parachute, starter solenoid, key, or sitting on a toilet. That's right, there are no such verses.

 

[Internet Theologian]

There was no "honest exposition of" scripture. But saying those who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" are lost is against the BB rules.

You said:First, Peter is not discussing the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Second, saying we who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" believe a "damnable heresy" is saying, as did Peter, that we are lost and under condemnation and threat of destruction.

Time for you to either apologize of take a break from the BB and have a long talk with the Lord about your tendency toward extreme dishonesty in these discussions.

Yes, he calls Calvinists lost via implication. DHK has called me lost personally and gets by with doing so on this board. This venue affords him this opportunity and obviously could care less, not to mention the relentless lying. We are well aware of what he believes concerning Calvinists, it is quite apparent.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They denied the Lord that bought or purchased them. The subject is about purchasing or redemption.

Brother,

In your view, are posters who try to persuade others into their belief in limited atonement by debating for it on the board guilty of the "damnable heresies" described in 2 Peter 2:1?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you honestly believe this?

Yes he does.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You haven't shown me any. Job 32:8 does not refer to faith at all. God gives to the believer wisdom. So? It says nothing about giving faith to the unregenerate. Neither do any of the other verses you have quoted.

Oh yes I have. You just disagree with me. Understanding comes from God, oui, both of us agree. But the lost man can not understand the things of God, Monsieur. Look at 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7 for instance. The unregenerate want anything but God. They are His enemy.

Of course the example of Cornelius is tough. It proves the opposite of what you believe. So does every other example in all the gospels as well as Acts. There is no example in these first five books that harmonize with your theology. In fact the exact opposite is what is true.

That's not what I meant and you know it. The book of Acts is a book of transition, and you have even acknowledged that. Things that happened during that age, most don't happen today. Eutychus fell 3 stories to his death, only to have Paul revive him. The crippled man at the gate Beautiful, Peter looked at him and told him to stand up and he then went running and leaping, praising God. Dorcas was dead when Peter revived her. Paul laid hands upon some who had John's baptism and they received the Holy Spirit and they were then baptized in the name of Jesus. Paul and Silas sang and prayed until the prison doors opened and their shackles fell off of them. An angel retrieved Peter while he was in the innermost part of prison, even smacking him on the side. Jesus appeared unto Saul and even verbally spoke to him. Herod was eaten alive by worms. How much of this goes on today?

That is why I said Acts is a tough book to get one's doctrine from. The Pentecostals and CoC got their's from it and look at what is going on in their churches.

Over and over again, Jesus said:
"according to your faith, so be it."
He never referred to "his faith." He never healed "according to his faith," but always according to either their faith," or his power, as in the case of Lazarus which was to demonstrate his deity. In all of these healings it is obvious that faith was innate. It is also obvious that Christ was the object of their faith.

Once God gives it(faith) to them, it is theirs to exercise.

1. Sometimes Christ was the object of their faith only as a healer and they were not saved.

Don't deny this in the least, Monsieur.

2. Sometimes Christ also became the object of their faith as Lord and Savior and they were also saved.

This is the faith once delivered unto the saints.

You cannot say with certainty that everyone does not have some opportunity some time to hear the gospel. I would leave such speculation in the hand of God.

Well, we know the gospel was sent out by the disciples. But the disciples were limited in their travelling. I find it extremely hard for peoples living on North American, South America, Mexico, Hawaiian Islands, what is now Alaska, those who died during the time of Jesus' ministry to have heard the gospel; to have heard that He even existed.

So you contradict yourself. On the one hand you say man cannot speak to God. OTOH you say it is possible, for all things are possible with God. God did it with Cain, with Adam, with Cornelius. God obviously can do it for others.

Apparently I haven't made myself clear, so I offer my apology. There is no contradiction in my stance. Satan, Adam and Cain all spoke to God, being unregenerate. Even throw in Abram. Both of us agree with this, I am sure. However, Adam and Abram were saved by God, whereas Cain and Satan, not. However, God does not speak to sinners verbally now as He did to Adam and Cain. It is through the Spirit He confers His grace unto them.

Certainly he knew about God in the false religion of Judaism, just as I knew about God in the false religion of the RCC. Neither he nor I was regenerated. How is that even gospel. It is impossible. He did not hear the gospel until four days later, after the Lord spoke to him, when Peter came and preached the gospel to him. Without the gospel no man can be regenerated. That is basic theology.

You have just shut the door in the faces of Adam, Aaron, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Samuel, Caleb, Elieazar, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, &c. They died pre-cross and were saved.

 

[DHK]

Brother,

The wife example you gave to support your contention that Biblical faith is innate is not analogous to Biblical faith because with a wife you can base your faith on her past behavior you have visibly seen with your eyes (one of your five senses) to have confidence and be persuaded of her future behavior, but with the things of God you cannot rely on your five senses, or visible seen past history (like the wife example), or science to have faith in His promises, this is why Biblical faith is not innate. Can you name one worldly physical thing one has full confidence and assurance in in this world without relying on their five senses, or visible seen past performance, or science?

Faith is confidence in the word of another that that person will accomplish what he or she said he would do.
When I was saved I put my faith in Christ, as it was revealed to me in the Scriptures, in Him as Lord and Savior, that He could do what the Scriptures said He could do--save me, forgive me, give me eternal life, and He did.
--That is salvation. Christ became the object of my faith, and He still is for I never stop believing.

I am a missionary. I often travel without my wife to areas that are quite remote--sometimes without electricity, without access to a phone or internet, etc. But I have implicit faith in my wife that she can be responsible for everything at home while I am away. I cannot rely on any of my five senses for that period of time. So that is the faith, trust, confidence that I must have in my wife at that time.
In addition, I put my faith in the Lord to take care of her, and no doubt she does the same for me. In Christianity, much of the time our faith is exercised through prayer.

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

[DHK]

Do you honestly believe this? This contradicts historical record and fact. You believe history supports all nations, kindred, tribes and tongues after the time of Christ's ascension actually may have heard the gospel? Ok then, how did the American Indians hear the gospel around AD 55 or so (please provide historical citation in your reply other than the Book of Mormon LOL).

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[SovereignGrace]

1. The Kingdom hasn't come yet. Therefore it is your dream world.

Then let me sleep.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Not everyone from every kindred, tongue, people & nation was redeemed, though.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am a missionary. I often travel without my wife to areas that are quite remote--sometimes without electricity, without access to a phone or internet, etc. But I have implicit faith in my wife that she can be responsible for everything at home while I am away. I cannot rely on any of my five senses for that period of time. So that is the faith, trust, confidence that I must have in my wife at that time.
In addition, I put my faith in the Lord to take care of her, and no doubt she does the same for me. In Christianity, much of the time our faith is exercised through prayer.

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

I do pray that God uses you to bring many sheep into the fold.

 

[DHK]

No, I haven't. Once again you display either an inability to understand simple declarative sentences or a dishonesty of intent.

You put two statements together that were unrelated and out of their respective contexts.

Only a saved person can be "fully persuaded."

Fully persuaded of what? Many people are fully persuaded. A Muslim wouldn't be a suicide bomber if he wasn't fully persuaded that it was the right thing for him to do. Some of your politicians seem to be fully persuaded in their convictions that they are right, and in their decisions, that they are better than the others.

 

[Rippon]

It is not this tangible mystical essence that you think God gives the unregenerate so that they are able to be saved.

Biblical saving faith is not magical. Knock it off.

Where do you come up with these things?

I was quoting your nonsense.

 

[DHK]

There was no "honest exposition of" scripture. But saying those who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" are lost is against the BB rules.

I quoted 2Peter 2:1. I referred to Peter. And I gave you the sense of the passage.
When you disagreed with me on that much I gave further explanation informing you that my interpretation was not new nor novel. And then I quoted at length from the Bible Knowledge Commentary which takes the same position as I had already explained. So what rule have I broken?

You said:First, Peter is not discussing the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Second, saying we who believe "Salvation is of the Lord" believe a "damnable heresy" is saying, as did Peter, that we are lost and under condemnation and threat of destruction.

Let's consider Young's literal translation:

(YLT) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
--What the KJV translates as "damnable" many others translate as "destructive," which is probably more accurate, the doctrine being destructive to the unity of the church.
--The other word is "heiress," more accurately translated "sect," as a sect of the Pharisees. In fact out of the 9 times the word is used 5 times it is translated sect, and 4 times it is translated heresy in the KJV. But what did the word "heresy" mean 400 years ago? Was it more of schismatic, a divisive person?

Time for you to either apologize of take a break from the BB and have a long talk with the Lord about your tendency toward extreme dishonesty in these discussions.

I don't believe what Calvinism teaches, and I don't need to apologize for that.
I don't need to apologize for not being a Calvinist.
And I don't need to apologize for the Bible when it doesn't harmonize with Calvin's teaching!

 

[DHK]

I've provided Scripture yet you have none to prove that faith is innate. Provide this or better yet stop your false teaching, eh?

I've alluded to your innate faith false gospel, and you're the one advocating innate faith, and then you are telling me that pointing out your Sola Finney belief is an insult? Really? LOL!

Now, go fetch a verse that proves biblical faith is the same as trusting a bridge, chair, parachute, starter solenoid, key, or sitting on a toilet. That's right, there are no such verses.

I have already. Read the thread. I am not going to give you a special audience.
Your failure to refer to the Word of God and simply casts aspersions demonstrate your lack of Biblical knowledge and second your inability to debate. This is your third straight post without referring to the Bible, and the same holds true for throwing insults.

 

[Rippon]

You can't refute something that is Biblical.

Certainly no one can refute something that is biblical. To refute means to prove. What I was saying (and you know it quite well) is that you have intentionally mischaracterized the views of Calvinists. Over and over again we have told you that we do not hold to that which you have attributed to us. But you have deliberately ignored our pleas with an arrogance that is beyond belief.

 

[TCassidy]

I don't believe what Calvinism teaches, and I don't need to apologize for that.
I don't need to apologize for not being a Calvinist.
And I don't need to apologize for the Bible when it doesn't harmonize with Calvin's teaching!

You need to apologize for lying. Nobody asked you to apologize for not believing in "Calvinism." You were asked to apologize for questioning our salvation, which is a violation of the BB rules.

And nobody asked you to apologize for the bible. You were asked to apologize for questioning our salvation, which is a violation of the BB rules.

 

[DHK]

Brother,

In your view, are posters who try to persuade others into their belief in limited atonement by debating for it on the board guilty of the "damnable heresies" described in 2 Peter 2:1?

I believe that Limited Atonement is a destructive teaching as it is defined in some other translations.
I have seen many other churches "destroyed" once a pastor holding such views have come and taken over the pastorate. It has caused church splits, hard feelings, and much damage in the "body."

The board is for debate. This is not a church. We can expect to have differences here. But in our local churches there needs to be unity.

 

[DHK]

You need to apologize for lying. Nobody asked you to apologize for not believing in "Calvinism." You were asked to apologize for questioning our salvation, which is a violation of the BB rules.

And nobody asked you to apologize for the bible. You were asked to apologize for questioning our salvation, which is a violation of the BB rules.

You believe Christ died for the elect.
I believe Christ died for the world.
I also believe that is what Peter is referring to in 2Pet.2:1.
At no time did I question your salvation.