False Religion of Arminianism

[37818]

It also does not support general redemption since the rest of Romans speaks of a particular redemption, an election. Those believers were died for because they were elect already. There is no indication in Scripture of general redemption nor is that logical. Christ paid for some but they still perish? No sir

The issue are those who are not yet saved. How are the not being regenerated to know Christ died for them without the general aspect to redemption?

 

[Reformed1689]

The issue are those who are not yet saved. How are the not being regenerated to know Christ died for them without the general aspect to redemption?

First, why do you think that is necessary to general redemption vs particular? Second, those that have been bought will be drawn specifically by the Father and will come to faith. There is no requirement for anyone else to know because they were not died for.

 

[37818]

It also does not support general redemption since the rest of Romans speaks of a particular redemption, an election. Those believers were died for because they were elect already. There is no indication in Scripture of general redemption nor is that logical. Christ paid for some but they still perish? No sir

Why preach the gospel to the perishing? It would seem that ccording to you, to do so is to lie to them. You believe Christ didn't die for them.

 

[37818]

First, why do you think that is necessary to general redemption vs particular? Second, those that have been bought will be drawn specifically by the Father and will come to faith. There is no requirement for anyone else to know because they were not died for.

Some resist, Acts 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

 

[37818]

. . . because they were not died for.

You do not know that, and supposing such, you do not know who they are. Preaching a false gospel to them, for whom Christ didn't die. That would make it evil.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why preach the gospel to the perishing? It would seem that ccording to you, to do so is to lie to them. You believe Christ didn't die for them.

I think you misunderstand what the Gospel is and what it is not. The Gospel is Christ died to save those would would believe in him. That is what I preach. I do not preach Christ died to save all, that would be a lie. The non-elect will never believe, the elect will always believe at some point in their life. So I can say Christ died for those that would believe in him with good conscience. That is also what John 3:16 states. That whosoever believeth. It does not say whosoever. There is a caveat. We do not know who the elect are and who are the non-elect so yes, to say Christ died for you, I don't know that is true.

 

[Reformed1689]

You do not know that, and supposing such, you do not know who they are. Preaching a false gospel to them, for whom Christ didn't die. That would make it evil.

I do know Christ did not die for the non-elect. That is what Scripture teaches. That is not an assumption. And you are correct, we do not know who is who. That still does not necessitate a general redemption in any way. See post #126

 

[JesusFan]

Why preach the gospel to the perishing? It would seem that ccording to you, to do so is to lie to them. You believe Christ didn't die for them.

Only God knows who the Elect are, so we teach and preach to all!

 

[Iconoclast]

Are all mankind sinners or only the not yet saved "elect?" ". . . I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. . . ." Jesus, Luke 5:32.

All are sinners indeed....and the preaching of the cross goes worldwide.

That is spoken of theologically as the well meant offer of the Gospel.
We are commanded to peach to all men.

God knows them that are His;

2tim2.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Iconoclast]

You do not know that, and supposing such, you do not know who they are. Preaching a false gospel to them, for whom Christ didn't die. That would make it evil.

Jesus did not think as you are trying to do;
Acts18;
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee:

for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God knew who He died to save, He knew that He had much people there...so He had Paul continue....He did not tell Paul who they were but rather continue to preach and teach.

 

[37818]

I think you misunderstand what the Gospel is and what it is not. The Gospel is Christ died to save those would would believe in him. That is what I preach. I do not preach Christ died to save all, that would be a lie. The non-elect will never believe, the elect will always believe at some point in their life. So I can say Christ died for those that would believe in him with good conscience. That is also what John 3:16 states. That whosoever believeth. It does not say whosoever. There is a caveat. We do not know who the elect are and who are the non-elect so yes, to say Christ died for you, I don't know that is true.

You can never know, in your view, who are and are not elect. None of them can have grounds to believe the. gospel. Because none of them can known for sure Christ even died for them.

 

[37818]

I do know Christ did not die for the non-elect.

That not being true, you know nothing of the sort. You believe you do. From your view, no one can know Christ died for them.

 

[DaveXR650]

You can never know, in your view, who are and are not elect. None of them can have grounds to believe the. gospel. Because none of them can known for sure Christ even died for them.

The grounds for someone to believe the gospel is that they are under conviction of their sin and feel the need to be right with God. Such people have the promise of Jesus himself that they can come to him and be saved. If it were possible for someone to truly come to Christ only to be told that unfortunately Christ didn't die for them then that would be a problem.

 

[37818]

Only God knows who the Elect are, so we teach and preach to all!

And how can anyone know Christ died for them without the general redemption being true?

 

[37818]

The grounds for someone to believe the gospel is that they are under conviction of their sin and feel the need to be right with God. Such people have the promise of Jesus himself that they can come to him and be saved. If it were possible for someone to truly come to Christ only to be told that unfortunately Christ didn't die for them then that would be a problem.

Great. Without the general redemption being true, how can anyone know Christ died for one's sins to really be saved?

 

[37818]

All are sinners indeed....and the preaching of the cross goes worldwide.

That is spoken of theologically as the well meant offer of the Gospel.
We are commanded to peach to all men.

God knows them that are His;

2tim2.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is not God's difficulty. It is yours not believing the general redemption is true. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

 

[DaveXR650]

Great. Without the general redemption being true how can anyone know Christ died for one's sins to really be saved?

I don't know how many times we can keep going over the same thing. You do understand don't you that just repeating the same thing over and over doesn't pass for debate, even on BB. (Well, maybe on BB, but not most places).

 

[DaveXR650]

My son has an RC Sproul mug that says "What's wrong with you people". I'm beginning to understand what he meant.

 

[37818]

I don't know how many times we can keep going over the same thing. You do understand don't you that just repeating the same thing over and over doesn't pass for debate, even on BB. (Well, maybe on BB, but not most places).

There are a number of different issues. Now I believe in particular redemption within the general redemption. Typically Calvinist believe in the particular redemption at the exclusion of the general redemption.

I am of the persuasion without the general redemption no one can know to believe believe Christ paid for one's sins.

Honestly I am at a lose what would change our minds one way or the other. I have heard no explanation how before conversation one can come to believe Christ paid for one's sins without hearing Christ paid for one's sins. It is either an unfounded assumption or believing in the general redemption and not admitting so.

 

[DaveXR650]

Honestly I am at a lose what would change our minds one way or the other. I have heard no explanation how before conversation one can come to believe Christ paid for one's sins without hearing Christ paid for one's sins. It is either an unfounded assumption or believing in the general redemption and not admitting so.

OK. That's fair enough and a good point. I personally have no problem telling someone that Christ died for their sins. Because if He didn't they will reject my attempt to witness by their own free will anyway. It all works together. When we talk to someone about Christ we aren't required to be theologians. I was reading a sermon by Jonathan Edwards where he told people that God has contrived the method of salvation and everything has been done for them - but God is waiting for their consent. That's probably not theologically precise either.

You really should look into the Amyraldian atonement theory. I think it is close to what you believe as someone suggested earlier.