False Religion of Arminianism

[Iconoclast]

It, Romans 5:8 also teaches the general redemption. Without which the not yet saved "elect" can know Christ died for them to believe. There is no gospel without the general redemption. Without the promise Christ died for one what is there to believe?

1tim1:15
...Jesus died to save sinners....a true statement that covers it as all are sinners..Paul taught it.

Denial. Universalism does not require the redemption, because if universalism were true our disagreement would not matter.

We are speaking of a real actual redemption, that actually redeems. You are not.

 

[Iconoclast]

You got it wrong. Yes, Christ died so secure His sheep. But He indeed died for all of man kind. 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19.

If He died for all men there would not be a need to tell us, He died for the sheep, the ones the Father gave to Him, the Church, His brethren...they would come under the same heading???

 

[Reformed1689]

Wow. You know we disagree on this.
What is the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15:3-4? How does the yet unbelieving know Christ paid for their sins? The understanding of the general redemption.

Newsflash, 1 Corinthians is not written to unbelievers.

 

[37818]

Remember, the people who come to Christ are given a promise by Jesus that they are allowed to come to him and they will not be rejected. He paid for the sins of those that come. Those that Christ did not die for will not come but it's because they don't want to come. Don't tie yourself in knots worrying that maybe God forgot to include someone in the atonement who wants to come. You can trust God. He's got this!

Also, I respect classical Arminianism and I understand why people might go in that direction. But the argument that you can have a conditional election doesn't make sense. If it's conditional then the condition is the reason - not election. Arminians should discard that argument.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. And I am of understanding the Biblical gospel requires the understanding of the general redemption, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Romans 5:8. Without the general redemption the non-believers would have no gospel message for them. It would become a question, did Chirst die for you? Would not really any gospel that Christ paid for your sin and guilt.

 

[DaveXR650]

37818. I am hoping you are typing from a cell phone with the same idiotic word changing program that mine has - otherwise we have problems.
But anyway, what I am trying to say is that the most Calvinistic Calvinists I know of believe Jesus when said "All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and HE THAT COMES TO ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." Knowing that, why worry about the extent of the atonement. Let that be God's business. You have a promise that if you come you will not be rejected. You can tell that to anyone. You have tons of verses saying that all who believe will be saved. We have sermons from Puritan high Calvinists inviting and practically begging sinners to come to Christ. If you don't want to believe in a particular redemption that is OK but you certainly still have a valid gospel.

 

[37818]

If He died for all men there would not be a need to tell us, He died for the sheep, the ones the Father gave to Him, the Church, His brethren...they would come under the same heading???

Your first phrase is not true. Without the New Testament records there would be no evidence of the truths of Christianity. It's gospel message is of the general redemption and Christ's bodily resurrection.

 

[37818]

Newsflash, 1 Corinthians is not written to unbelievers.

It's gospel message is to be understood that of the general redemption. 2 Corinthians 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:21.

 

[37818]

37818. I am hoping you are typing from a cell phone with the same idiotic word changing program that mine has - otherwise we have problems.
But anyway, what I am trying to say is that the most Calvinistic Calvinists I know of believe Jesus when said "All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and HE THAT COMES TO ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." Knowing that, why worry about the extent of the atonement. Let that be God's business. You have a promise that if you come you will not be rejected. You can tell that to anyone. You have tons of verses saying that all who believe will be saved. We have sermons from Puritan high Calvinists inviting and practically begging sinners to come to Christ. If you don't want to believe in a particular redemption that is OK but you certainly still have a valid gospel.

Yeah, typing from my cell phone. I believe the same Scriptures Calvinists do. But I understand somethings quite different. I do believe in the particular redemption in and it being the prime reason for the general redemption. Two aspects of the one redemption.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your first phrase is not true. Without the New Testament records there would be no evidence of the truths of Christianity. It's gospel message is of the general redemption and Christ's bodily resurrection.

You can invent things if you want.
Young can continue to misuse rom.5:8 if you want.Several do that on here.
It will not change one thing.
You do any contrary thing to avoid everything offered by every poster.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's gospel message is to be understood that of the general redemption. 2 Corinthians 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:21.

No you force that onto it because you somehow think those verses were written to tell the lost Christ died for them. That is poor hermeneutics my friend.

 

[37818]

You can invent things if you want.
Young can continue to misuse rom.5:8 if you want.Several do that on here.
It will not change one thing.
You do any contrary thing to avoid everything offered by every poster.

There is no honest gospel without the general redemption. Prove otherwise.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no honest gospel without the general redemption. Prove otherwise.

We have proved it, 1tim.1:15.
Also, the whole book of Acts.
You just reject it.

 

[AustinC]

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. And I am of understanding the Biblical gospel requires the understanding of the general redemption, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Romans 5:8. Without the general redemption the non-believers would have no gospel message for them. It would become a question, did Chirst die for you? Would not really any gospel that Christ paid for your sin and guilt.

I look at the verses you use and I don't see some philosophical "general" redemption.
Either God redeems a person or he doesn't. It's specific, not some general, wishy washy, mamby pamby, theoretical redemption.

 

[37818]

We have proved it, 1tim.1:15.
Also, the whole book of Acts.
You just reject it.

Rejecting some interpertations not Scripture. I have believed in the general redemption over 50 years.
1 Timothy 1:15, ". . . This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. . . ." The sinners are all man kind, the general redemption as taught by the Apostle Paul. Thank you.

 

[37818]

No you force that onto it because you somehow think those verses were written to tell the lost Christ died for them. That is poor hermeneutics my friend.

Romans 5:8 teaches that Christ died for the believers while they were not believers. And is not contrary to the Biblical general redemption being understood.

 

[37818]

We are speaking of a real actual redemption, that actually redeems. You are not.

The particular redemption is in the general redemption. It is those who believe the general redemption who by God's grace become partakers in the particular redemption in the general redemption.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rejecting some interpertations not Scripture. I have believed in the general redemption over 50 years.
1 Timothy 1:15, ". . . This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. . . ." The sinners are all man kind, the general redemption as taught by the Apostle Paul. Thank you.

You continue in your error.
That statement says nothing about a general redemption...it just teaches what the goal and basis of a gospel presentation is.Jesus saves sinners.
You claim there can be no gospel except for what you believe is a gospel formula, like you were wrongly taught 50 years ago.
No where in scripture do the Apostles say Jesus died for...YOUR sins.
But as I said, you can have a Burger King kind of have it your way understanding.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 5:8 teaches that Christ died for the believers while they were not believers. And is not contrary to the Biblical general redemption being understood.

We can be more specific. Hebrews 9:15-17 tells us that each believer was written into Jesus last will and testament (New Covenant) and these believers are given their designated Inheritance. The redemption isn't general. The redemption is very, very specific with a specific name written down in the will.

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

 

[37818]

You continue in your error.
That statement says nothing about a general redemption...it just teaches what the goal and basis of a gospel presentation is.Jesus saves sinners.
You claim there can be no gospel except for what you believe is a gospel formula, like you were wrongly taught 50 years ago.
No where in scripture do the Apostles say Jesus died for...YOUR sins.
But as I said, you can have a Burger King kind of have it your way understanding.

Are all mankind sinners or only the not yet saved "elect?" ". . . I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. . . ." Jesus, Luke 5:32.

 

[Reformed1689]

Romans 5:8 teaches that Christ died for the believers while they were not believers. And is not contrary to the Biblical general redemption being understood.

It also does not support general redemption since the rest of Romans speaks of a particular redemption, an election. Those believers were died for because they were elect already. There is no indication in Scripture of general redemption nor is that logical. Christ paid for some but they still perish? No sir